[rescue] Dumping SunOS tapes

[Richard]

Hi Folks

OK so the SS2 is installed 4.1.3_U1 (sans Presto Card) and the Archive
150 Tape drive is operational and confirmed not destroying tapes :-).

I have however checked a couple of tapes and the internal belts have
degraded/snapped on some (anyone know of a replacement belt?). Others
are good and I can recover data from tar/dump backups. I have a box of
about 50 tapes so I should be able to get data off of the original Sun
tape set, even if it is mix and match. I am however being pessimistic
and working on the understanding that I will get 1 go per tape with the
potential for tape breakage or other damage occurring.

So here is the question.

What format/tool do people suggest I use to image the tape such that
others could use the images.

thank in advance

Richard
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mouse]

Post by Richard
OK so the SS2 is installed 4.1.3_U1 (sans Presto Card) and the
Archive 150 Tape drive is operational and confirmed not destroying
tapes :-).

Good!

Post by Richard
[...]
So here is the question.
What format/tool do people suggest I use to image the tape such that
others could use the images[?]

Personally, I like copytape. I don't know where the version I have
came from; the header comment, which encapsulates all I know about its
genesis, says

/*
* COPYTAPE.C
*
* This program duplicates magnetic tapes, preserving the
* blocking structure and placement of tape marks.
*
* This program was updated at
*
* U.S. Army Artificial Intelligence Center
* HQDA (Attn: DACS-DMA)
* Pentagon
* Washington, DC 20310-0200
*
* Phone: [phone]
*
* Apparently, some copytape version was, on 1991-12-13, available from
* oak.oakland.edu in /pub2/unix-c/tapes/copytape.tar.Z. Whether or
* not it's still available from there now I have no idea.
*
* On 2000-10-19, I was told source and manpage were available from
* http://sources.isc.org/utils/backup/copytape.txt, though I did
* not check this myself.
*
**************************************************
*
* THIS PROGRAM IS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN
*
**************************************************
*
* May 2005 Mouse
* Added -T.
*
* October 1998 Mouse
* Ported to NetBSD and wgcc - note, USE_RMT code untested.
*
* July 1986 David S. Hayes
* Made data file format human-readable.
*
* April 1985 David S. Hayes
* Original Version.
*/

This version is up on ftp.rodents-montreal.org, in
/mouse/local/src/copytape/, in case anyone wants to pick up a copy.

In your particular case, copytape is probably overkill, because IIRC
QIC tapes are not streams of self-delimited tape records (which is the
usual Unix magtape model) but rather streams of fixed-size blocks (with
interspersed tape marks), so repeated runs of dd can probably capture
the content. I'm sure someone here can correct me if I'm wrong; I may
confusing QIC tapes with some other format like TK-50s.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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[Doug McIntyre]

Post by Richard
What format/tool do people suggest I use to image the tape such that
others could use the images.

dd is fine, but with the old SunOS tapes, you have to know that there
are several tape files, and a single dd on the normal tape device
will only read the first tape file off the tape, and not get all of it.

You will have to dd in each tape file off the no-rewind device until you
get no more data.

I don't remember how many tape files a typical SunOS tape had. More than 2?
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Richard]

Yes more than 2. 6-8+ from memory...

dd is an option and yes /dev/nrst0 will get a workout. That would however
create a lot of files to reconstruct the tape from.

Have dug out "copytape" but am aware that is very specific.

Any other thoughts out there?

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Doug McIntyre

Post by Richard
What format/tool do people suggest I use to image the tape such that
others could use the images.

dd is fine, but with the old SunOS tapes, you have to know that there
are several tape files, and a single dd on the normal tape device
will only read the first tape file off the tape, and not get all of it.
You will have to dd in each tape file off the no-rewind device until you
get no more data.
I don't remember how many tape files a typical SunOS tape had. More than 2?
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

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rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Richard]

Ok so I think the biggest issue is going to be the internal belts.

I have tried 5 tapes tonight (only 1 vendor tape - FrameMaker) and 3 of them
had the tension belt give in.

Not going to run anymore tapes until I find a solution/replacement belt.

FYI I have images of the FrameMaker3.0 tape (sun3/4/i386) and have installed
it on my SS2....working fine

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image1.JPG; x-apple-part-url=A45BA0E7-E61A-49CF-AC87-78763BA83E7D]
Sent from my iPhone

Post by Richard
Yes more than 2. 6-8+ from memory...
dd is an option and yes /dev/nrst0 will get a workout. That would however

create a lot of files to reconstruct the tape from.

Post by Richard
Have dug out "copytape" but am aware that is very specific.
Any other thoughts out there?
Sent from my iPhone

Post by Doug McIntyre

Post by Richard
What format/tool do people suggest I use to image the tape such that
others could use the images.

dd is fine, but with the old SunOS tapes, you have to know that there
are several tape files, and a single dd on the normal tape device
will only read the first tape file off the tape, and not get all of it.
You will have to dd in each tape file off the no-rewind device until you
get no more data.
I don't remember how many tape files a typical SunOS tape had. More than 2?
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mouse]

Post by Richard
Ok so I think the biggest issue is going to be the internal belts.
I have tried 5 tapes tonight (only 1 vendor tape - FrameMaker) and 3
of them had the tension belt give in.
Not going to run anymore tapes until I find a solution/replacement belt.

I've seen it said that opening a good cartridge and transplanting the
belt to replace a broken one is workable, provided the two cartridges
in question have identical tape lengths and thus identical belt lengths.

Never had occasion to try it myself.

Mouse
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Dave McGuire]

Post by Mouse

Post by Richard
Ok so I think the biggest issue is going to be the internal belts.
I have tried 5 tapes tonight (only 1 vendor tape - FrameMaker) and 3
of them had the tension belt give in.
Not going to run anymore tapes until I find a solution/replacement belt.

I've seen it said that opening a good cartridge and transplanting the
belt to replace a broken one is workable, provided the two cartridges
in question have identical tape lengths and thus identical belt lengths.
Never had occasion to try it myself.

I have done it many times. Replacing the belts is easy once you've
done the first one or two.

While I've not tried them myself, I'm told that ordinary rubber bands
might seem like they'd work but they actually don't. Some people have
reported success with a product similar to rubber bands called
"Plastibands", I believe the manufacturer is called Baumgarten. These
are available via Amazon. I've not tried these either, but I probably
will at some point. Up until now I've been lucky enough to have some
donor cartridges available when I need to recover data.

-Dave

[John Hudak]

Could you please show me a picture (pointer) of the cartridge + belt you
are talking about?

I do some 'vintage' tape deck restoration and have access to a few belt
suppliers....
If one knows the geometries of the belt, one can try to match it to
existing.

Something doesn't make sense to be tho...someone posted something about
belt being matched to length of tape? I don't see how tape length would
dictate belt geometries, and even if it did, I'd think the economies of
mass production of a single belt would significantly outweigh the cost of
producing multiple belts.....
Thanks
J

Post by Richard
Hi Folks
OK so the SS2 is installed 4.1.3_U1 (sans Presto Card) and the Archive
150 Tape drive is operational and confirmed not destroying tapes :-).
I have however checked a couple of tapes and the internal belts have
degraded/snapped on some (anyone know of a replacement belt?). Others
are good and I can recover data from tar/dump backups. I have a box of
about 50 tapes so I should be able to get data off of the original Sun
tape set, even if it is mix and match. I am however being pessimistic
and working on the understanding that I will get 1 go per tape with the
potential for tape breakage or other damage occurring.
So here is the question.
What format/tool do people suggest I use to image the tape such that
others could use the images.
thank in advance
Richard
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Peter Stokes]

Hi John

I think you misunderstand where the belt is.

The belt is actually inside the tape cartridge and a single capstan wheel rubs
against a wheel in the cartridge to move this belt which moves both spools of
the tape. The belt, unlike cassette deck belts etc, is very thin, much like
the tape itself. Each length of tape has varying sizes of belt as the belt
runs around the tape spools themselves.

If you link to here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter-inch_cartridge

You will actually see an old Sunos tape cartridge and others.

Peter
---------------------------
Peter Stokes
Ashlyn Computer Services
Mbl: 07977 532320
---------------------------

Post by John Hudak
Could you please show me a picture (pointer) of the cartridge + belt you
are talking about?
I do some 'vintage' tape deck restoration and have access to a few belt
suppliers....
If one knows the geometries of the belt, one can try to match it to
existing.
Something doesn't make sense to be tho...someone posted something about
belt being matched to length of tape? I don't see how tape length would
dictate belt geometries, and even if it did, I'd think the economies of
mass production of a single belt would significantly outweigh the cost of
producing multiple belts.....
Thanks
J

Post by Richard
Hi Folks
OK so the SS2 is installed 4.1.3_U1 (sans Presto Card) and the Archive
150 Tape drive is operational and confirmed not destroying tapes :-).
I have however checked a couple of tapes and the internal belts have
degraded/snapped on some (anyone know of a replacement belt?). Others
are good and I can recover data from tar/dump backups. I have a box of
about 50 tapes so I should be able to get data off of the original Sun
tape set, even if it is mix and match. I am however being pessimistic
and working on the understanding that I will get 1 go per tape with the
potential for tape breakage or other damage occurring.
So here is the question.
What format/tool do people suggest I use to image the tape such that
others could use the images.
thank in advance
Richard
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Dave McGuire]

Post by Peter Stokes
I think you misunderstand where the belt is.
The belt is actually inside the tape cartridge and a single capstan wheel rubs
against a wheel in the cartridge to move this belt which moves both spools of
the tape. The belt, unlike cassette deck belts etc, is very thin, much like
the tape itself. Each length of tape has varying sizes of belt as the belt
runs around the tape spools themselves.

The other thing that's important to know is that the characteristics
of the belt are critical. Its elasticity, texture, and surface friction
characteristics must be just right to move the tape without slipping and
to allow for proper re-tensioning.

-Dave

[Mouse]

Post by Peter Stokes

Post by John Hudak
Could you please show me a picture (pointer) of the cartridge + belt
you are talking about?
I do some 'vintage' tape deck restoration and have access to a few
belt suppliers....
If one knows the geometries of the belt, one can try to match it to
existing.

I think you misunderstand where the belt is.
The belt is actually inside the tape cartridge [...] [and,] unlike
cassette deck belts etc, is very thin, [...]

True. But see below.

Post by Peter Stokes
Each length of tape has varying sizes of belt as the belt runs around
the tape spools themselves.

Yes. It is not, strictly, the length of the tape that matters, but the
thickness of the tape-wound-on-the-reels (but the tape thickness is
standard enough that that varies with only the total tape length, in
practice); the belt runs around three (I think) idler wheels, around
approximately 1/4 of the circumference of each reel of tape, and, IIRC,
past a small cutout in the case where it can be pinched between a
driven roller and idler in the drive. (I may be misremembering; the
belt could be driven entirely by the tape, with the roller and idler
pinching just the tape. I don't have a cartridge handy to look at at
the moment.) As tape winds from one reel to the other, the belt length
required for each reel changes, but the sum of the two stays very close
to constant. (Maybe even as constant as the tape length; I'd have to
think about it more. It's complicated by factors like the way the
fraction of the tape reel circumference covered by the belt changes
slightly as the reel fills and empties.)

It is, in a sense, a drive belt; it is part of the overall tape
transport, helping move the medium. But there is one inside each
cartridge - they are not part of the "tape drive" device - and they are
not what belt suppliers are generally going to think of as drive belts.

All that said, if any belt supplier _can_ match them, I'm sure everyone
trying to recover data from QIC tapes would be delighted.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML ***@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Dave McGuire]

Post by Mouse
All that said, if any belt supplier _can_ match them, I'm sure everyone
trying to recover data from QIC tapes would be delighted.

The cartridge drive belts are made in a somewhat unusual process in
which a disk of the plastic is cut from, I believe, a piece of tubing,
and then stretched between two heated rollers. As far as I'm aware this
isn't how normal belts (like for pulleys) are made.

Athana makes them, or at least they did. I'm told that the gentleman
who ran Athana passed away recently, so I'm unsure of their future, but
they make/made those belts; if they're willing to sell them (even in
huge quantities) it would be worth pursuing. That's been on my to-do
list for some time but I've not had a chance to talk with them about it.

-Dave

[John Hudak]

Ditto on the Athana ref....
J

Post by Dave McGuire

Post by Mouse
All that said, if any belt supplier _can_ match them, I'm sure everyone
trying to recover data from QIC tapes would be delighted.

The cartridge drive belts are made in a somewhat unusual process in
which a disk of the plastic is cut from, I believe, a piece of tubing,
and then stretched between two heated rollers. As far as I'm aware this
isn't how normal belts (like for pulleys) are made.
Athana makes them, or at least they did. I'm told that the gentleman
who ran Athana passed away recently, so I'm unsure of their future, but
they make/made those belts; if they're willing to sell them (even in
huge quantities) it would be worth pursuing. That's been on my to-do
list for some time but I've not had a chance to talk with them about it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[John Hudak]

thanks Peter....Ohhhh, QIC cartridges...
I understood where the belt is but didn't realize that it actually moved
the tape in the manner described.

So the issues are belt residue xfer to tape, and belt
elongation/deterioration.

It seems that replacing the belt with a new one is the way to go. googling
found this helpful video:

You will also need a new belt. I didn't find any sources of belts but...If
you contact these ppl you can get a new cartridge and use the belt from
that.
http://www.athana.com/html/dc.html

Cleaning tape residue.
the trick is to remove the goo without removing the binder and iron.
Hopefully the tape was rewound....
Ive used 70% isopropal alcohol (NOT Ethallcohol) with a Q-tip on the iron
coated side and NuFinish (yes the car wax) on the non iron coated side.

I would not even try to read the tapes once...I came across some statistics
that tapes over 20 yrs old the success rate in using them is less than 5%.

Good luck
J

Post by Peter Stokes
Hi John
I think you misunderstand where the belt is.
The belt is actually inside the tape cartridge and a single capstan wheel rubs
against a wheel in the cartridge to move this belt which moves both spools of
the tape. The belt, unlike cassette deck belts etc, is very thin, much like
the tape itself. Each length of tape has varying sizes of belt as the belt
runs around the tape spools themselves.
If you link to here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter-inch_cartridge
You will actually see an old Sunos tape cartridge and others.
Peter
---------------------------
Peter Stokes
Ashlyn Computer Services
Mbl: 07977 532320
---------------------------

Post by John Hudak
Could you please show me a picture (pointer) of the cartridge + belt you
are talking about?
I do some 'vintage' tape deck restoration and have access to a few belt
suppliers....
If one knows the geometries of the belt, one can try to match it to
existing.
Something doesn't make sense to be tho...someone posted something about
belt being matched to length of tape? I don't see how tape length would
dictate belt geometries, and even if it did, I'd think the economies of
mass production of a single belt would significantly outweigh the cost of
producing multiple belts.....
Thanks
J

Post by Richard
Hi Folks
OK so the SS2 is installed 4.1.3_U1 (sans Presto Card) and the Archive
150 Tape drive is operational and confirmed not destroying tapes :-).
I have however checked a couple of tapes and the internal belts have
degraded/snapped on some (anyone know of a replacement belt?). Others
are good and I can recover data from tar/dump backups. I have a box of
about 50 tapes so I should be able to get data off of the original Sun
tape set, even if it is mix and match. I am however being pessimistic
and working on the understanding that I will get 1 go per tape with the
potential for tape breakage or other damage occurring.
So here is the question.
What format/tool do people suggest I use to image the tape such that
others could use the images.
thank in advance
Richard
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[John Hudak]

I forgot to mention that I came across some postings that claim the belts
in the DC6150 were more resistant to aging then the original....something
about a change in the mfg process for the 6xxx series. Belts in those
units might be likely donor candidates....

This issue, in general, is not unique and a lot of postings about solutions
seem to be around...the trick will be to find 'the' way as opposed to the
dead ends.

I'll see if I can find something from the belt suppliers I deal with.
J

Post by John Hudak
thanks Peter....Ohhhh, QIC cartridges...
I understood where the belt is but didn't realize that it actually moved
the tape in the manner described.
So the issues are belt residue xfer to tape, and belt
elongation/deterioration.
It seems that replacing the belt with a new one is the way to go.
http://youtu.be/70PDHfdbsvY
You will also need a new belt. I didn't find any sources of belts
but...If you contact these ppl you can get a new cartridge and use the belt
from that.
http://www.athana.com/html/dc.html
Cleaning tape residue.
the trick is to remove the goo without removing the binder and iron.
Hopefully the tape was rewound....
Ive used 70% isopropal alcohol (NOT Ethallcohol) with a Q-tip on the iron
coated side and NuFinish (yes the car wax) on the non iron coated side.
I would not even try to read the tapes once...I came across some
statistics that tapes over 20 yrs old the success rate in using them is
less than 5%.
Good luck
J

Post by Peter Stokes
Hi John
I think you misunderstand where the belt is.
The belt is actually inside the tape cartridge and a single capstan wheel rubs
against a wheel in the cartridge to move this belt which moves both spools of
the tape. The belt, unlike cassette deck belts etc, is very thin, much like
the tape itself. Each length of tape has varying sizes of belt as the belt
runs around the tape spools themselves.
If you link to here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter-inch_cartridge
You will actually see an old Sunos tape cartridge and others.
Peter
---------------------------
Peter Stokes
Ashlyn Computer Services
Mbl: 07977 532320
---------------------------

Post by John Hudak
Could you please show me a picture (pointer) of the cartridge + belt you
are talking about?
I do some 'vintage' tape deck restoration and have access to a few belt
suppliers....
If one knows the geometries of the belt, one can try to match it to
existing.
Something doesn't make sense to be tho...someone posted something about
belt being matched to length of tape? I don't see how tape length would
dictate belt geometries, and even if it did, I'd think the economies of
mass production of a single belt would significantly outweigh the cost

of

Post by John Hudak
producing multiple belts.....
Thanks
J

Post by Richard
Hi Folks
OK so the SS2 is installed 4.1.3_U1 (sans Presto Card) and the Archive
150 Tape drive is operational and confirmed not destroying tapes :-).
I have however checked a couple of tapes and the internal belts have
degraded/snapped on some (anyone know of a replacement belt?). Others
are good and I can recover data from tar/dump backups. I have a box of
about 50 tapes so I should be able to get data off of the original Sun
tape set, even if it is mix and match. I am however being pessimistic
and working on the understanding that I will get 1 go per tape with the
potential for tape breakage or other damage occurring.
So here is the question.
What format/tool do people suggest I use to image the tape such that
others could use the images.
thank in advance
Richard
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue