Discussion:
[rescue] SPARCclassic X - what software did this run?
Andrew Liles
2017-09-06 04:13:31 UTC
Permalink
It sounds like the SPARCclassic X machines were designed to netboot special X
terminal software instead of a full SunOS/Solaris - does anyone know how that
worked, how that was installed, and if some sort of distribution of that is
still out there somewhere?

I assume the machines netbooted via the usual RARP/bootparams/NFS scheme that
other SPARC machines do, but how did that differ from a normal diskless
workstation setup?

May be acquiring one and would like to attempt running what it was intended
for.

Thanks!

-a.
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Peter Stokes
2017-09-06 05:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi Andrew

I forget the exact software it was to run, I am sure someone will enlighten
you, but pretty sure it was a marketing version of the classic (ie same
motherboard and same chassis) with maybe no disk and limited memory, but could
be upgraded to a full classic, a bit like they did with the Netra versions of
the SS5 and SS20.

I could of course remember it incorrectly...!

Peter
---------------------------
Peter Stokes
Ashlyn Computer Services
Mbl: 07977 532320
---------------------------
Post by Andrew Liles
It sounds like the SPARCclassic X machines were designed to netboot special X
terminal software instead of a full SunOS/Solaris - does anyone know how that
worked, how that was installed, and if some sort of distribution of that is
still out there somewhere?
I assume the machines netbooted via the usual RARP/bootparams/NFS scheme that
other SPARC machines do, but how did that differ from a normal diskless
workstation setup?
May be acquiring one and would like to attempt running what it was intended
for.
Thanks!
-a.
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Bill Bradford
2017-09-06 06:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stokes
Hi Andrew
I forget the exact software it was to run, I am sure someone will enlighten
you, but pretty sure it was a marketing version of the classic (ie same
motherboard and same chassis) with maybe no disk and limited memory, but could
be upgraded to a full classic, a bit like they did with the Netra versions of
the SS5 and SS20.
I could of course remember it incorrectly...!
I seem to remember something along the same lines. Throw a disk in there and
more RAM, an external CD-ROM, and "boot cdrom" to your heart's content and
there you go.

Here's an article where someone did exactly that:

http://archive.oreilly.com/pub/post/from_x_terminal_to_solaris_8_b.html

And here's the nvram tweaks required to make the SPARCClassic X recognize
itself as a normal SPARCClassic, from the nvram/hostid FAQ:

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

SparcClassic /Classic X Terminal NVRAM differences

This section was supplied by Gary Cook <***@netwiz.net>. I have not been
able to try this personally because I don't currently have access to this
type of machine.

Change the following locations in NVRAM to switch between Classic and
Classic

Address ClassicX Value Classic Value

71202004 ff 00

71202005 12 00

71202006 08 00

71202007 36 00

Notes:

* Classic X requires all locations to be set to above values. If they are
not, the system takes on the Classic personality.
* Bootprom for Classic X cannot be Version 2.9. This version will ignore
the above NVRAM changes. Classic X requires earlier versions, such as
2.12.

Procedure

Classic --> Classic X

ok
ff 71202004 20 spacec!
12 71202005 20 spacec!
08 71202006 20 spacec!
36 71202007 20 spacec!

Classic X --> Classic

ok
00 71202004 20 spacec!
00 71202005 20 spacec!
00 71202006 20 spacec!
00 71202007 20 spacec!


Bill
--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas USA
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Andrew Liles
2017-09-06 11:52:32 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Peter!

I have heard the same - that the motherboards are identical to the regular
Classic, but generally shipped with far less RAM, and maybe the PROM is a
slightly different version/different NVRAM settings. I'm just interested in
the
whole "X terminal" aspect of it vs. using it as a normal standalone
workstation.

I'm guessing it's a minimal version of Solaris that netboots and just loads
up
Xsun and xdmcp or something - but can't really find any references to it
aside
from blurbs in press releases.

-a
Post by Peter Stokes
Hi Andrew
I forget the exact software it was to run, I am sure someone will enlighten
you, but pretty sure it was a marketing version of the classic (ie same
motherboard and same chassis) with maybe no disk and limited memory, but could
be upgraded to a full classic, a bit like they did with the Netra versions of
the SS5 and SS20.
I could of course remember it incorrectly...!
Peter
---------------------------
Peter Stokes
Ashlyn Computer Services
Mbl: 07977 532320
---------------------------
Post by Andrew Liles
It sounds like the SPARCclassic X machines were designed to netboot
special
Post by Peter Stokes
X
Post by Andrew Liles
terminal software instead of a full SunOS/Solaris - does anyone know how
that
Post by Andrew Liles
worked, how that was installed, and if some sort of distribution of that is
still out there somewhere?
I assume the machines netbooted via the usual RARP/bootparams/NFS scheme
that
Post by Andrew Liles
other SPARC machines do, but how did that differ from a normal diskless
workstation setup?
May be acquiring one and would like to attempt running what it was intended
for.
Thanks!
-a.
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Peter Stokes
2017-09-06 14:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi Andrew

I think you are correct, it would have been a minimal OS which was enough to
run the Xserver and was released to compete against the other X terminal
suppliers at the time I guess.

No idea if the software was included in standard Solaris or was a separate
install on a server.

Peter
---------------------------
Peter Stokes
Ashlyn Computer Services
Mbl: 07977 532320
---------------------------
Post by Andrew Liles
Thanks Peter!
I have heard the same - that the motherboards are identical to the regular
Classic, but generally shipped with far less RAM, and maybe the PROM is a
slightly different version/different NVRAM settings. I'm just interested in
the
whole "X terminal" aspect of it vs. using it as a normal standalone
workstation.
I'm guessing it's a minimal version of Solaris that netboots and just loads
up
Xsun and xdmcp or something - but can't really find any references to it
aside
from blurbs in press releases.
-a
Post by Peter Stokes
Hi Andrew
I forget the exact software it was to run, I am sure someone will enlighten
you, but pretty sure it was a marketing version of the classic (ie same
motherboard and same chassis) with maybe no disk and limited memory, but
could
Post by Peter Stokes
be upgraded to a full classic, a bit like they did with the Netra versions
of
Post by Peter Stokes
the SS5 and SS20.
I could of course remember it incorrectly...!
Peter
---------------------------
Peter Stokes
Ashlyn Computer Services
Mbl: 07977 532320
---------------------------
Post by Andrew Liles
It sounds like the SPARCclassic X machines were designed to netboot
special
Post by Peter Stokes
X
Post by Andrew Liles
terminal software instead of a full SunOS/Solaris - does anyone know how
that
Post by Andrew Liles
worked, how that was installed, and if some sort of distribution of that
is
Post by Peter Stokes
Post by Andrew Liles
still out there somewhere?
I assume the machines netbooted via the usual RARP/bootparams/NFS scheme
that
Post by Andrew Liles
other SPARC machines do, but how did that differ from a normal diskless
workstation setup?
May be acquiring one and would like to attempt running what it was
intended
Post by Peter Stokes
Post by Andrew Liles
for.
Thanks!
-a.
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
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Andrew Liles
2017-09-06 18:32:35 UTC
Permalink
It looks like the X Terminal stuff was an unbundled software package
called SUNWxt, at least according to this patch README:

http://download.nust.na/pub3/solaris/patchroot/current_unsigned/101894-01.README

---
Patch-ID# 101894-01
Keywords: Xterminal, xterminal, hangs, mbufs, xdm, giantpacket
Synopsis: X Terminal 2.0: hangs - out of mbufs, giantpacket
Date: Sep/27/94

Solaris Release: 1.0, 1.1

SunOS Release: 4.1.1, 4.1.2, 4.1.3

Unbundled Product: X Terminal

Unbundled Release: 2.0

Relevant Architectures: sun4m
---

Guessing that is probably lost to time, at least I can't find anything
but the patches for it.

-a.
Post by Peter Stokes
Hi Andrew
I think you are correct, it would have been a minimal OS which was enough to
run the Xserver and was released to compete against the other X terminal
suppliers at the time I guess.
No idea if the software was included in standard Solaris or was a separate
install on a server.
Peter
---------------------------
Peter Stokes
Ashlyn Computer Services
Mbl: 07977 532320
---------------------------
Post by Andrew Liles
Thanks Peter!
I have heard the same - that the motherboards are identical to the regular
Classic, but generally shipped with far less RAM, and maybe the PROM is a
slightly different version/different NVRAM settings. I'm just interested in
the
whole "X terminal" aspect of it vs. using it as a normal standalone
workstation.
I'm guessing it's a minimal version of Solaris that netboots and just loads
up
Xsun and xdmcp or something - but can't really find any references to it
aside
from blurbs in press releases.
-a
Post by Peter Stokes
Hi Andrew
I forget the exact software it was to run, I am sure someone will
enlighten
Post by Andrew Liles
Post by Peter Stokes
you, but pretty sure it was a marketing version of the classic (ie same
motherboard and same chassis) with maybe no disk and limited memory, but
could
Post by Peter Stokes
be upgraded to a full classic, a bit like they did with the Netra versions
of
Post by Peter Stokes
the SS5 and SS20.
I could of course remember it incorrectly...!
Peter
---------------------------
Peter Stokes
Ashlyn Computer Services
Mbl: 07977 532320
---------------------------
Post by Andrew Liles
It sounds like the SPARCclassic X machines were designed to netboot
special
Post by Peter Stokes
X
Post by Andrew Liles
terminal software instead of a full SunOS/Solaris - does anyone know how
that
Post by Andrew Liles
worked, how that was installed, and if some sort of distribution of that
is
Post by Peter Stokes
Post by Andrew Liles
still out there somewhere?
I assume the machines netbooted via the usual RARP/bootparams/NFS scheme
that
Post by Andrew Liles
other SPARC machines do, but how did that differ from a normal diskless
workstation setup?
May be acquiring one and would like to attempt running what it was
intended
Post by Peter Stokes
Post by Andrew Liles
for.
Thanks!
-a.
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Jerry Kemp
2017-09-06 09:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Up to and including Solaris 7, diskless clients could be configured thru an
Openwin tool called the admintool, which shipped as part of the Solstice
AdminSuite package(s). After Solaris 7, i.e. Solaris 8+, diskless clients
were/are still there, but had to be configured from the command line.

Thru the whole .COM boom, I was employed by Sprint, and contracted out to an oil
exploration company. I (officially) was wearing a Cisco/network hat during my
time there, but still did some Solaris administration, although it wasn't my
primary job. In short, there were others that solely wore a Solaris hat and
provided direction.

We had 6 or 7 floors fully populated by geologist, all with a Sun SPARC
workstation on their desk, ranging from SparcStation 10's/sun4m to sun4u boxes,
including (very much maxed out, for their time) Ultra 1/1e, Ultra 2, Ultra 5/10
and Tatung SPARC clones with Sun AXi motherboards towards the end, prior to my
leaving, around 2000.

The Unix guys in charge ran all these workstations as diskless workstations.

You might ask, "most of those boxes shipped with nice SCSI HDD's, what happened
to those?" Great question. Any local HDD's were used for local swap space.
Other (than me) powers-that-be determine the following:

* diskless workstations were easier to deploy and administer and patch on a
large scale

* once booted (<-this is key), in-house testing proved that applications ran
just as quick on diskless workstations as they did on boxes with the OS
installed on a local HDD. Applications were NFS (ver 3) access regardless

* diskless clients were more resiliant to (l)user damage, i.e. a geologist could
physically cycle power on the workstation on his/her workstation, and the box
would boot with no need to 'fsck' as the OS was a network device, that had not
gone down hard.

This was also the only place that I had not only seen CacheFS used, but
successfully used.

History lesson over.

Specifically addressing your SPARC Classic, probably the best answer would be to
see specifically what version(s) of SunOS 4.x/Solaris 1.x or SunOS 5.x/Solaris
2.x were supported, then choose from there based on what application(s) you plan
to run or other criteria.

Media, physical or electronic/ISO is typically available on eBay, misc Internet
sites you found thru your favorite search engine and sometime, just by asking
here on this list for what you are looking for.

regarding your netboot question, I would answer yes, Sun diskless clients booted
using pretty much similar protocols as other diskless workstations, using RARPs
and NFS. However, if you are interested in some variations on that theme, I
would invite you to look at the JavaStation and the Sun Ray thin client.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaStation>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Ray>

There were also a number of Sun Ray clones produced by Tadpole, General
Dynamics, Naturetech, Aimtec and Arima
Post by Andrew Liles
It sounds like the SPARCclassic X machines were designed to netboot special X
terminal software instead of a full SunOS/Solaris - does anyone know how that
worked, how that was installed, and if some sort of distribution of that is
still out there somewhere?
I assume the machines netbooted via the usual RARP/bootparams/NFS scheme that
other SPARC machines do, but how did that differ from a normal diskless
workstation setup?
May be acquiring one and would like to attempt running what it was intended
for.
Thanks!
-a.
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Jerry Kemp
2017-09-06 09:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Hopefully this page will answer the question in your subject header, what
software will my SPARC Classic run.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARCclassic>
Post by Andrew Liles
It sounds like the SPARCclassic X machines were designed to netboot special X
terminal software instead of a full SunOS/Solaris - does anyone know how that
worked, how that was installed, and if some sort of distribution of that is
still out there somewhere?
I assume the machines netbooted via the usual RARP/bootparams/NFS scheme that
other SPARC machines do, but how did that differ from a normal diskless
workstation setup?
May be acquiring one and would like to attempt running what it was intended
for.
Thanks!
-a.
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Sandwich Maker
2017-09-06 11:31:07 UTC
Permalink
" From: Bill Bradford <***@mrbill.net>
"
" []
"
" And here's the nvram tweaks required to make the SPARCClassic X recognize
" itself as a normal SPARCClassic, from the nvram/hostid FAQ:
"
" - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"
" []
"
"
" Notes:
"
" * Classic X requires all locations to be set to above values. If they are
" not, the system takes on the Classic personality.
" * Bootprom for Classic X cannot be Version 2.9. This version will ignore
" the above NVRAM changes. Classic X requires earlier versions, such as
" 2.12.

isn't 2.12 *later* than 2.9?
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
***@an.bradford.ma.us and think what none thought
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Jerry Kemp
2017-09-06 20:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Hello Andrew,

Found some more stuff, from Mr. Bill's message archive, from 2012, for your
Classic X.

Yep, I did test the oracle.com service manual link before posting this. It still
works and I grabbed a copy for myself.

See original note at bottom.

Hope this helps.

Jerry
Post by Andrew Liles
It sounds like the SPARCclassic X machines were designed to netboot special X
terminal software instead of a full SunOS/Solaris - does anyone know how that
worked, how that was installed, and if some sort of distribution of that is
still out there somewhere?
I assume the machines netbooted via the usual RARP/bootparams/NFS scheme that
other SPARC machines do, but how did that differ from a normal diskless
workstation setup?
May be acquiring one and would like to attempt running what it was intended
for.
Thanks!
-a.
Subject: Re: [rescue] The Terminals Wiki
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:43:43 -0400
From: J. Alexander Jacocks <***@mac.com>
Reply-To: The Rescue List <***@sunhelp.org>
To: The Rescue List <***@sunhelp.org>

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Richard <***@xmission.com> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Andrew Liles
Hopefully this is not considered off-topic for the rescue list.
Didn't Sun tape some diskless SPARCstations and sell them as X
terminals at one point?
Yep, SPARC Classic X. The service manual seems to be here:
http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19127-01/sparc.classic/801-2176-13/801-2176-13.pdf

- Alex
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Skeezics Boondoggle
2017-09-06 20:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Liles
It looks like the X Terminal stuff was an unbundled software package
http://download.nust.na/pub3/solaris/patchroot/current_
unsigned/101894-01.README
[...]
Guessing that is probably lost to time, at least I can't find anything
but the patches for it.
Post by Peter Stokes
Hi Andrew
I think you are correct, it would have been a minimal OS which was
enough to
Post by Peter Stokes
run the Xserver and was released to compete against the other X terminal
suppliers at the time I guess.
The package we used (or at least started with) way back in the '90s was
called "Xkernel," IIRC, and it was exactly that: a very minimal SunOS 4
kernel, the basic set of executables and /dev tree required to support the
X server, and a shell script to replace "init". We ran it very comfortably
on 8MB SS1s and SS2s, long before the Classic was out, but early versions
of Netscape triggered memory leaks in Xsun that caused it to pack it in
every few days. 16MB was much more comfortable. As older diskful machines
were too sluggish and expensive to patch and maintain running SunOS or
Solaris, we could pull disks and reconfigure them in minutes to be almost
zero-maintenance X terminals, which was great for academic institutions
where the interval between grants meant desktops languished while resources
got allocated to beefier servers instead.

I even created a version of Xkernel for NeXTstep 3.3 (called it
"NeXTkernel", naturally) so that you could turn lovely black NeXTstations
into X terminals. But I'd be hard pressed to dig that code up at this
point. Searching for Xkernel brings up a competely different "x-kernel"
project, or a "Melodic death metal band from Kiev, Ukraine." :-)

Cheers,
-- c
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Dave McGuire
2017-09-07 00:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skeezics Boondoggle
The package we used (or at least started with) way back in the '90s was
called "Xkernel," IIRC, and it was exactly that: a very minimal SunOS 4
kernel, the basic set of executables and /dev tree required to support the
X server, and a shell script to replace "init". We ran it very comfortably
on 8MB SS1s and SS2s, long before the Classic was out, but early versions
of Netscape triggered memory leaks in Xsun that caused it to pack it in
every few days. 16MB was much more comfortable. As older diskful machines
were too sluggish and expensive to patch and maintain running SunOS or
Solaris, we could pull disks and reconfigure them in minutes to be almost
zero-maintenance X terminals, which was great for academic institutions
where the interval between grants meant desktops languished while resources
got allocated to beefier servers instead.
Ahh I remember Xkernel well. At Digex in the early 1990s we ran a
bunch of X terminals based on Xkernel as a starting point, which we
modified pretty heavily from there for our applications. These were on
the desks of our sales and support staff. The machines were Sun-3/50s,
3/60s, and a few 3/140s. They were back-ended by a Sun-4/380, the staff
server.
Post by Skeezics Boondoggle
I even created a version of Xkernel for NeXTstep 3.3 (called it
"NeXTkernel", naturally) so that you could turn lovely black NeXTstations
into X terminals. But I'd be hard pressed to dig that code up at this
point. Searching for Xkernel brings up a competely different "x-kernel"
project, or a "Melodic death metal band from Kiev, Ukraine." :-)
Nice! :)

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Andrew Liles
2017-09-07 01:01:12 UTC
Permalink
I found this FAQ regarding the Sun Xterminal softwareb& no leads on the
actual package/tar/installer though :(

http://www.bakercomputeranddata.com/doc/faq/xterminal

-a.
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Skeezics Boondoggle
The package we used (or at least started with) way back in the '90s was
called "Xkernel," IIRC, and it was exactly that: a very minimal SunOS 4
kernel, the basic set of executables and /dev tree required to support the
X server, and a shell script to replace "init". We ran it very comfortably
on 8MB SS1s and SS2s, long before the Classic was out, but early versions
of Netscape triggered memory leaks in Xsun that caused it to pack it in
every few days. 16MB was much more comfortable. As older diskful machines
were too sluggish and expensive to patch and maintain running SunOS or
Solaris, we could pull disks and reconfigure them in minutes to be almost
zero-maintenance X terminals, which was great for academic institutions
where the interval between grants meant desktops languished while resources
got allocated to beefier servers instead.
Ahh I remember Xkernel well. At Digex in the early 1990s we ran a
bunch of X terminals based on Xkernel as a starting point, which we
modified pretty heavily from there for our applications. These were on
the desks of our sales and support staff. The machines were Sun-3/50s,
3/60s, and a few 3/140s. They were back-ended by a Sun-4/380, the staff
server.
Post by Skeezics Boondoggle
I even created a version of Xkernel for NeXTstep 3.3 (called it
"NeXTkernel", naturally) so that you could turn lovely black NeXTstations
into X terminals. But I'd be hard pressed to dig that code up at this
point. Searching for Xkernel brings up a competely different "x-kernel"
project, or a "Melodic death metal band from Kiev, Ukraine." :-)
Nice! :)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

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