[rescue] Top vs. Bottom posting (was: revived: TiBook G4 867...)

[Mark Benson]

Most Phone apps make proper posting quite a lot of effort to do these

days,

sadly.
But, again, I just did it in GMail on an Android phone, they've just

driven

me to lazin3ss and bad habits.

OK, that's true, but my personal solution to this genuine issue is...
not to post to mailing lists from my phone.

I almost exclusively post from my phone, because I usually read the list
during breaks at work where I don't log into my personal mail on their PCs.
I actually hate using email on desktops because the clients these days are
ropey as hell (yes, hello Thunderbird, here's lookin at you)

Since it is, IMHO, rude

and disruptive, makes threads very hard to follow, breaks up
discussions, etc., and it's hard to quote properly from phones -- I
blame Microsoft, for the ignorant programmers who implemented Outlook,
and cowards like Google not having the guts to resist the creeping
trend -- the easy answer is, don't. I just wait 'til I'm on a proper
computer.

I'm using the default GMail phone app from Google, it works just fine as
long as you know how. Just tap the '. . .' in the message body! I found K9
clunky and poorly laid out UI-wise.

Outlook was certainly what used to cause headaches back in the desktop era
for sure. I remember being an LEM list admin and it was a problem back then
too, especially with people posting from MS software.

Frankly it's largely contextual for my 2 cents. If it's a long thread, lots
of points that need replying to such as you'd find in a mailing list, yes,
bottom posting is prettymuch required. As you say it's easier to follow. I
try to, even on my phone. I slip sometimes because of aforementioned lazy
habits. I think going as far as calling it rude and disruptive is a tad
strong, it's inconvenient for sure though, but in this modern age I've come
to accept it with a slight roll of the eyes and a sigh (especially when I
do it myself!!) :). Life's too short to push up my blood pressure over it.

If it's a one shot reply to something, usually between me and 1 other, I
tend not to bother. It's actually easier to quickly read replies like that
if it's the first thing in the mail, a valid point my boss made when I
asked him about it some years ago (he's a prettymuch died-in-the-wool top
poster). We've had cases where, when replying at the bottom of stuff,
customers have missed information. So, horses for courses as it were.

You may also notice I still sign my emails with a standard singature
delimiter '-- <cr><cr>' which makes them easier to trim off, and a
surprising number of clients still support that.

[Liam Proven]

Post by Mark Benson
I almost exclusively post from my phone, because I usually read the list
during breaks at work where I don't log into my personal mail on their PCs.
I actually hate using email on desktops because the clients these days are
ropey as hell (yes, hello Thunderbird, here's lookin at you)

I agree, they are. It's a category in sad decline.

On my work desktop, I've tried Thunderbird, Claws, Sylpheed,
Evolution, Balsa, GNUstep Mail, KMail and others. All have glaring
flaws.

Thunderbird is generally the best but it's a bloated mess these days.

Claws does the job but with classic Unix user-friendliness, i.e., very
little.

Most of the rest did not do stuff I absolutely require, such as
background fetching.

It's why I use Gmail as my home client now. It too has many flaws and
is getting worse, not better, but it's about as good as it gets.

Post by Mark Benson
I'm using the default GMail phone app from Google, it works just fine as
long as you know how. Just tap the '. . .' in the message body!

Same as the desktop client, then. :-)

Post by Mark Benson
I found K9
clunky and poorly laid out UI-wise.

Agreed.

Post by Mark Benson
Outlook was certainly what used to cause headaches back in the desktop era
for sure. I remember being an LEM list admin and it was a problem back then
too, especially with people posting from MS software.

Yep. There was a time when I recommended it as the business email
client of choice. By Outlook 98, I regretted this. After 2000 or so, I
was growing to hate it.

Many say it's OK with Exchange, but it's really not -- and Exchange
has many horrific problems of its own.

I hate the whole damned stack and all the layers individually.

Post by Mark Benson
Frankly it's largely contextual for my 2 cents. If it's a long thread, lots
of points that need replying to such as you'd find in a mailing list, yes,
bottom posting is prettymuch required. As you say it's easier to follow. I
try to, even on my phone. I slip sometimes because of aforementioned lazy
habits. I think going as far as calling it rude and disruptive is a tad
strong, it's inconvenient for sure though, but in this modern age I've come
to accept it with a slight roll of the eyes and a sigh (especially when I
do it myself!!) :). Life's too short to push up my blood pressure over it.

I wish I could agree but it still gets to me. :-(

Post by Mark Benson
If it's a one shot reply to something, usually between me and 1 other, I
tend not to bother. It's actually easier to quickly read replies like that
if it's the first thing in the mail, a valid point my boss made when I
asked him about it some years ago (he's a prettymuch died-in-the-wool top
poster). We've had cases where, when replying at the bottom of stuff,
customers have missed information. So, horses for courses as it were.

I've met that too.

Post by Mark Benson
You may also notice I still sign my emails with a standard singature
delimiter '-- <cr><cr>' which makes them easier to trim off, and a
surprising number of clients still support that.

I'd jolly well hope so, too! ;-)

--
Liam Proven b" Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: ***@cix.co.uk b" Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: ***@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven b" Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: [phone] b" DR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): [phone]
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rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Jonathan Groll]

Post by Liam Proven
It's why I use Gmail as my home client now. It too has many flaws and
is getting worse, not better, but it's about as good as it gets.

<RMS> The biggest flaw is that one must allow Google access to the contents
of your private messages! </RMS>

Cheers,
Jonathan
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[John Floren]

<snip>

Post by Liam Proven

Post by Mark Benson
I found K9
clunky and poorly laid out UI-wise.

Agreed.

<snip>

Post by Liam Proven

Post by Mark Benson
Frankly it's largely contextual for my 2 cents. If it's a long thread, lots
of points that need replying to such as you'd find in a mailing list, yes,
bottom posting is prettymuch required. As you say it's easier to follow. I
try to, even on my phone. I slip sometimes because of aforementioned lazy
habits. I think going as far as calling it rude and disruptive is a tad
strong, it's inconvenient for sure though, but in this modern age I've come
to accept it with a slight roll of the eyes and a sigh (especially when I
do it myself!!) :). Life's too short to push up my blood pressure over it.

I wish I could agree but it still gets to me. :-(

Post by Mark Benson
If it's a one shot reply to something, usually between me and 1 other, I
tend not to bother. It's actually easier to quickly read replies like that
if it's the first thing in the mail, a valid point my boss made when I
asked him about it some years ago (he's a prettymuch died-in-the-wool top
poster). We've had cases where, when replying at the bottom of stuff,
customers have missed information. So, horses for courses as it were.

I've met that too.

Post by Mark Benson
You may also notice I still sign my emails with a standard singature
delimiter '-- <cr><cr>' which makes them easier to trim off, and a
surprising number of clients still support that.

I'd jolly well hope so, too! ;-)

One might ask if it was worth the edit to go through and snip and
in-line reply when the in-line replies are primarily "me too". One
could make the argument that you'd be better off top-posting a
coherent well-written summary along the lines of "I agree with your
points regarding K9 and Outlook. I've tried <email clients>, blah
blah, etc.". The advantages of this:

* It's clearer to read, because you lay out your points in full
paragraphs rather than split up among someone else's email
* It allows mail clients to condense or hide the original message
until you want to see it (gmail will condense the original message to
[...] *as long as you haven't gone through and inline replied*)
* Most email clients with a split summary / message display like
Thunderbird will start the message display at the top, and if you're
working your way through an email thread you've already got a bit of
context in your head so you just want to see people's *replies* right
away rather than scroll through crap you already read. The original
messages are down below if you want them.
* Inline replying breaks up the original message and makes it harder
to read. The original poster's 3 coherent paragraphs get separated
from each other by multiple levels of inane replies.

Myself, I top post, I bottom post, I inline reply sometimes, but these
days the way I read mail & the way mail clients are designed seems
most conducive to top-posting. I used to get upset if people
top-replied in mailing lists, but I've found I'm a lot happier now
that I don't let it bother me (I think this change of attitude
happened sometime in college when I realized the Jargon File isn't a
how-to document)


john
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[Lionel Peterson]

Nice!

Lionel

Post by John Floren
(I think this change of attitude
happened sometime in college when I realized the Jargon File isn't a
how-to document)

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rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Lionel Peterson]

Post by John Floren
(I think this change of attitude
happened sometime in college when I realized the Jargon File isn't a
how-to document)

Nice!

Lionel
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rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Lionel Peterson]

Post by John Floren
One might ask if it was worth the edit to go through and snip and
in-line reply when the in-line replies are primarily "me too".

I find neither of my two previous responses to this email, one top-posted, the
other bottom-posted, 'insulting':

Because I chose to trim my response first, either tip or bottom-posting fully
displays in one window with no need for scrolling in any reasonable desktop
mail client - you simply start reading where there is no indentation.

On a portable (phone) the entire message may or may not display on a single,
no scroll, window, so top posting seems appropriate for that audience.

On auxiliary displays (iWatch) top-posting is a clear winner.

I'll top-post, but I'm aware that may limit my audience, rub some people wrong
- as the man once said 'you can't please everyone so you've got to please
yourself." [0]

Lionel
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[Jonathan Patschke]

Post by Lionel Peterson
I find neither of my two previous responses to this email, one

Top-posting is a mild faux pas compared to what I more commonly deal with
when exchanging messages relatively new email users who have only ever
dealt with HTML "email" and the bletcherous tools that craft it.

"Please see my comments in red inserted into your mail."

Post by Lionel Peterson
On a portable (phone) the entire message may or may not display on a
single, no scroll, window, so top posting seems appropriate for that
audience.

Some innovative person should come up with a messaging platform or tool
optimized for the display of short messages, possibly even SMS-short. I
predict it would do well among the demographics of people who primarily
use read-only computing devices.

Reading mail on my pocket-computer is something that I only do if I have
to precisely because it's an awful tool for the job. No amount of
convention is going to make it less so.

Post by Lionel Peterson
I'll top-post, but I'm aware that may limit my audience, rub some people
wrong - as the man once said 'you can't please everyone so you've got to
please yourself." [0]

Yep. Horses for courses / audiences.

[Michael Parson]

<snip>

Post by Liam Proven

Post by Mark Benson
I'm using the default GMail phone app from Google, it works just fine as
long as you know how. Just tap the '. . .' in the message body!

Same as the desktop client, then. :-)

Post by Mark Benson
I found K9
clunky and poorly laid out UI-wise.

Agreed.

I've been using K9 pretty much since I got my first Android phone. It's
not the best client out there, but it's what i know.

I heavily filter my mail at the point of delivery and have a seperate
account that I forward just stuff that lands in my inbox. I don't try
and deal with list mail, spam, etc, it's just an inbox reader. That
does mean that I wind up having to delete a message twice, but I've been
doing it that way since I first started checking my mail with a phone
back in the Handspring/Palm Treo days.

Post by Liam Proven

Post by Mark Benson
Outlook was certainly what used to cause headaches back in the desktop era
for sure. I remember being an LEM list admin and it was a problem back then
too, especially with people posting from MS software.

Yep. There was a time when I recommended it as the business email
client of choice. By Outlook 98, I regretted this. After 2000 or so, I
was growing to hate it.
Many say it's OK with Exchange, but it's really not -- and Exchange
has many horrific problems of its own.
I hate the whole damned stack and all the layers individually.

After 8 years at IBM and Lotus Notes, I actually missed the simplicity
of Outlook. But I've only ever used it for work mail.

Post by Liam Proven

Post by Mark Benson
Frankly it's largely contextual for my 2 cents. If it's a long thread, lots
of points that need replying to such as you'd find in a mailing list, yes,
bottom posting is prettymuch required. As you say it's easier to follow. I
try to, even on my phone. I slip sometimes because of aforementioned lazy
habits. I think going as far as calling it rude and disruptive is a tad
strong, it's inconvenient for sure though, but in this modern age I've come
to accept it with a slight roll of the eyes and a sigh (especially when I
do it myself!!) :). Life's too short to push up my blood pressure over it.

I wish I could agree but it still gets to me. :-(

I've given up even caring. For mail that winds up in my inbox, I follow
whatever method I know that person expects, which means a lot of the
time, replies are top-posted. Replying in-line or below the message
confuses too many people any more. Most of the lists I'm on are old
farts like us that still recognize and practice the Right Way.

Post by Liam Proven

Post by Mark Benson
If it's a one shot reply to something, usually between me and 1 other, I
tend not to bother. It's actually easier to quickly read replies like that
if it's the first thing in the mail, a valid point my boss made when I
asked him about it some years ago (he's a prettymuch died-in-the-wool top
poster). We've had cases where, when replying at the bottom of stuff,
customers have missed information. So, horses for courses as it were.

I've met that too.

Post by Mark Benson
You may also notice I still sign my emails with a standard singature
delimiter '-- <cr><cr>' which makes them easier to trim off, and a
surprising number of clients still support that.

I'd jolly well hope so, too! ;-)

[Lionel Peterson]

As the spark that kicked this off this round of top vs. bottom posting, I feel
a need to respond.

I agree with the 'first thing you see' argument, and I also tend to trim
responses, rather than simply add my 2B" worth to a verbatim copy of the
entire conversation to that point. (As I did here)

When multiple points are addressed, in-line responses are the only way to
respond, but since email clients that support threads, and if all involved
make an effort to have a meaningful subject line and stay on topic, it works
well IMHO.

In conversation, nothing drives me up a wall faster than someone telling a
story by saying "so I said..., then he said, then I said, and Pete said..."
forcing me to relive their conversation rather than just telling me the
outcome of the conversation, and having to scroll past previous comments to
get to the new information feels equally frustrating.

So, bottom line:

I trim my replies as appropriate.

I type in continuous lines, leaving it to your mail client to impose line
breaks as best suits your device.

I prefer plain text to 'rich format' (HTML).

And I top post if I only have one response because IMHO it's easier to follow
the flow of the email thread in context.

Lionel

Post by Mark Benson
Frankly it's largely contextual for my 2 cents. If it's a long thread, lots
of points that need replying to such as you'd find in a mailing list, yes,
bottom posting is prettymuch required.

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[Jerry Kemp]

I'm definitely siding with Lionel on this one.

Email is always ASCII. Always (significantly) trim old post down to only what I am replying to.

I know what was said previously in the (email) thread. If I forgot, I review the old post from my personal archive.

Its not 1991 anymore and we aren't on Usenet. 95% of the time I always top post. I neither want, nor need to read the old
information. It is already my responsibility to be on-top-of and know what is transpiring in the discussion.

The other odd 5%, when I have a lot to reply to, I will do an inline comments.

I (generally) have no intent of wanting to wade thru a bunch of old comment, and have to work my down thru a page or two of quoted
text to hunt for the average quick one or two line post/laziness on my part.

I have left/voluntarily unsubscribed from other list that have attempted to force the bottom post issue.

Apparently it (bottom posting) made some sense back on Usenet decades ago, but even then, I'm not sure I really understood the
desire for it. The Internet seems to save just about everything forever, and personally, I've found my own post dated back to the
late 1980's and early 1990's. I'm not sure how, but I am extremely thankful I never got dragged into any nasty flame wars.

Bottom posting may have had some purpose in the distant past, but I don't personally see any positives to it, and don't believe it
has been relevant for some time. YMMV.

Jerry
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rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mouse]

Post by Jerry Kemp
Email is always ASCII.

On this list, and a few others, yes. Otherwise...not always. I not
infrequently use 8859-1, and routinely receive UTF-8 and occasionally
other non-ASCII character sets. (Indeed, until I made my mailer reject
them, I routinely received Microsoft something-or-other mislabeled as
8859-1.)

Post by Jerry Kemp
95% of the time I always top post.

If you don't mind the rudeness it conveys, well, it's your reputation.

Post by Jerry Kemp
I neither want, nor need to read the old information. It is already
my responsibility to be on-top-of and know what is transpiring in the
discussion.

That's fine...for you. But for you to be willing to impose such a
"responsibility" on all your correspondents? That just...rude. I get
enough mail that it really does help to have each mail remind me of
what conversation it belongs to and, since mail not infrequently
arrives out of order, where it fits into the conversation.

Yes, six pages of cascaded quotes followed by two lines of new text is
a pain. That's what trimming is for.

http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1.html is a blah
post of mine which links to a piece I wrote explaining why top-posting
comes across to me as rude. The teal deer is "if you can't be bothered
to take a few moments to make it easy to read, why should I be bothered
to take the time to read it?".

Post by Jerry Kemp
I have left/voluntarily unsubscribed from other list that have
attempted to force the bottom post issue.

Sounds like a good resolution of such a case. I know I would be
unlikely to put up with a list that insisted on untrimmed top-posting.

Post by Jerry Kemp
Apparently it (bottom posting) made some sense back on Usenet decades
ago, [...]

I don't recall ever seeing anyone seriously defend bottom posting, not
even back in the heyday of Usenet in the '80s. The two major camps
I've seen are untrimmed top-posting and trimmed inline. (You are the
first person I recall seeing mention top-posting with trimmed quotes;
it's possible I've seen someone do it and not realized it, because I
tend to skim top-posts at best and stop even skimming when I first see
quoted material.)

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML ***@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
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[alex d]

Subject: Re: [rescue] Top vs. Bottom posting (was: revived: TiBook G4 867...)
I find neither of my two previous responses to this email, one top-posted, the
other bottom-posted, 'insulting'

Nothing insulting about it, but from a user experience point of view the bottom posting method is 'better'.

I read John's message (which you trimmed) and then see your Nice! comment. I know what you're saying Nice! to. Makes sense and it flows nicely.

When you top posted, I had to ask myself - What is he saying Nice! to? Scan message, shift eyesight to bottom, read John's message (which you trimmed) then go Ahhh! That's what's he's saying Nice! to. Awkward.

When you're commenting inline, you put your comments after (bottom) the quoted piece for the same reason - It makes sense and it flows nicely.
Why would you do it differently other times?

Just my $0.02

cheers
--
alex


:
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[Ian Finder]

Can you insufferable pedants please not debate this again? I don't give a
s**t how you post, as long as it's on-topic and readable.

I've seen this topic far too many times between here and the other list,
and I have to say the drop in SNR has become far more exhausting than
parsing modern reply behavior.

It's always the same people who start this 'debate.' You know who you are.
Please stop.
Consider joining a HOA instead and legislating your neighbor's lawn
ornaments?

- I

Subject: Re: [rescue] Top vs. Bottom posting (was: revived: TiBook G4

867...)

I find neither of my two previous responses to this email, one

top-posted, the

other bottom-posted, 'insulting'

Nothing insulting about it, but from a user experience point of view the
bottom posting method is 'better'.
I read John's message (which you trimmed) and then see your Nice! comment.
I know what you're saying Nice! to. Makes sense and it flows nicely.
When you top posted, I had to ask myself - What is he saying Nice! to?
Scan message, shift eyesight to bottom, read John's message (which you
trimmed) then go Ahhh! That's what's he's saying Nice! to. Awkward.
When you're commenting inline, you put your comments after (bottom) the
quoted piece for the same reason - It makes sense and it flows nicely.
Why would you do it differently other times?
Just my $0.02
cheers
--
alex
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[John Hudak]

********* THANK YOU!!!!! ********************
/rant on
I thought it was only me being made crazy by this pedantic drivel over a
dead horse.
of all the important and more interesting topics to discuss in this forum,
and even in the world, I can't believe this banter continues.and its not
only here. Every so often it comes up on other forums I belong to. If the
fact that email is insulting to you (whether it is top post, bottom post,
or side post), sharpen your programming chops and write a
translator/interface to make you happy.
If it is insulting, the other option is, don't even read email.
It is 2018 and I've seen this ridiculous topic come up since the early
90s....quite frankly, who cares????
Get over it!!! adapt!..move on...do something worthwhile and quit whining
about this already.

Whew...
/rant off

-John

Post by Ian Finder
Can you insufferable pedants please not debate this again? I don't give a
s**t how you post, as long as it's on-topic and readable.
I've seen this topic far too many times between here and the other list,
and I have to say the drop in SNR has become far more exhausting than
parsing modern reply behavior.
It's always the same people who start this 'debate.' You know who you are.
Please stop.
Consider joining a HOA instead and legislating your neighbor's lawn
ornaments?
- I

Subject: Re: [rescue] Top vs. Bottom posting (was: revived: TiBook G4

867...)

I find neither of my two previous responses to this email, one

top-posted, the

other bottom-posted, 'insulting'

Nothing insulting about it, but from a user experience point of view the
bottom posting method is 'better'.
I read John's message (which you trimmed) and then see your Nice!

comment.

I know what you're saying Nice! to. Makes sense and it flows nicely.
When you top posted, I had to ask myself - What is he saying Nice! to?
Scan message, shift eyesight to bottom, read John's message (which you
trimmed) then go Ahhh! That's what's he's saying Nice! to. Awkward.
When you're commenting inline, you put your comments after (bottom) the
quoted piece for the same reason - It makes sense and it flows nicely.
Why would you do it differently other times?
Just my $0.02
cheers
--
alex
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

--
Ian Finder
(206) 395-MIPS
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[Bill Bradford]

Post by Ian Finder
Can you insufferable pedants please not debate this again? I don't give a
s**t how you post, as long as it's on-topic and readable.
I've seen this topic far too many times between here and the other list,
and I have to say the drop in SNR has become far more exhausting than
parsing modern reply behavior.
It's always the same people who start this 'debate.' You know who you are.
Please stop.
Consider joining a HOA instead and legislating your neighbor's lawn
ornaments?

I'm with Ian here, as the list owner. There's more important things to
waste cycles on than top-vs-bottom-posting. Consider the content of the
message, not the layout.

As it is, I strip all the list posts down to 7-bit ASCII (for the most part)
and remove attachments. In fact, the relevant line for this list in my
aliases.malman file looks like:

rescue: "|/usr/bin/demime - |/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post rescue"

NAME
demime - Removes mime attachments and other cruft from e-mail

SYNOPSIS
demime [-d] [relay |-] quiet


DESCRIPTION
There are two major features of demime - mime removal and advertising
signature removal.

(actually looking for a modern equivalent of demime, as I think I had to
compile it from source the last time I reinstalled..)

Bill

[Carl R. Friend]

Post by Bill Bradford
(actually looking for a modern equivalent of demime, as I think I had to
compile it from source the last time I reinstalled..)

This may actually be a "feature" of the modern world where all
manner of stuff other than plain old ASCII run rampant. So, it does
not surprise me at all that you had to build from (perhaps rather old)
source to get the executable. The odds of finding a "modern" version
may border on minuscule.

Personally, I'd call the omission a mis-feature, or even a bug
when it comes to things like this list, but who am I to oppose the
likes of Apple and Micro$oft.

For what it's worth, I use the "trim assiduously and in-line
post" methodology.

For the pedants, take note of my sig-block. It's that way for a
reason. (Hint: It's a ruler.)

Cheers!

[Hauke Fath]

Post by Bill Bradford
(actually looking for a modern equivalent of demime, as I think I had to
compile it from source the last time I reinstalled..)

compile?

It's a single Perl script...

<https://web.archive.org/web/20071126010824/http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.ht
ml>

Cheerio,
hauke

--
Hauke Fath <***@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE>
Ernst-Ludwig-Stra_e 15
64625 Bensheim
Germany
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[Bill Bradford]

Post by Hauke Fath

Post by Bill Bradford
(actually looking for a modern equivalent of demime, as I think I had to
compile it from source the last time I reinstalled..)

compile?
It's a single Perl script...
<https://web.archive.org/web/20071126010824/http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.ht
ml>

This was years ago. Bad memory. "manually install vs having an OS-provided
package".

Bill