[rescue] what can you do with an Apple Quadro 840AV

[Patrick Giagnocavo]

One of these sort of dropped into my lap (figuratively speaking).

Anything interesting that can be done with them?

Cheers

Patrick
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[William Barnett-Lewis]

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
One of these sort of dropped into my lap (figuratively speaking).

I was going to suggest A/UX but I see that model is not compatible.
Incompatible with the MacIvory Symbolics Lisp Machine too.

Mach Ten or find a copy of Macintosh Common Lisp for 68k?

Play obscure old games?

Donate to a Macintosh museum?

It was the fastest 68k machine Apple made but there's really nothing
all that special anymore that can only be done with them.

William

[Steve Rikli]

Post by William Barnett-Lewis

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
One of these sort of dropped into my lap (figuratively speaking).

I was going to suggest A/UX but I see that model is not compatible.
Incompatible with the MacIvory Symbolics Lisp Machine too.
Mach Ten or find a copy of Macintosh Common Lisp for 68k?
Play obscure old games?
Donate to a Macintosh museum?
It was the fastest 68k machine Apple made but there's really nothing
all that special anymore that can only be done with them.

NetBSD is a possibility if you're looking for a Unix-like OS, and
the 840AV is listed as a supported model:

http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/mac68k/
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Patrick Giagnocavo]

didn't the 840AV have some onboard DSPs or something? They were used to accelerate... something?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Rikli" <***@genyosha.net>
To: "The Rescue List" <***@sunhelp.org>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:49:27 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: Re: [rescue] what can you do with an Apple Quadro 840AV

Post by William Barnett-Lewis

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
One of these sort of dropped into my lap (figuratively speaking).

I was going to suggest A/UX but I see that model is not compatible.
Incompatible with the MacIvory Symbolics Lisp Machine too.
Mach Ten or find a copy of Macintosh Common Lisp for 68k?
Play obscure old games?
Donate to a Macintosh museum?
It was the fastest 68k machine Apple made but there's really nothing
all that special anymore that can only be done with them.

NetBSD is a possibility if you're looking for a Unix-like OS, and
the 840AV is listed as a supported model:

http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/mac68k/
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[l***@gmail.com]

Yes, it had an AT&T DSP3210. I donbt think it was used for very much other
than video decoding.

As usual, it was offered to Commodore by AT&T for the Amiga 3000 but they
fucked it up somehow and Apple ended up with it.

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
didn't the 840AV have some onboard DSPs or something? They were used to

accelerate... something?

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:49:27 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: Re: [rescue] what can you do with an Apple Quadro 840AV

Post by William Barnett-Lewis

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
One of these sort of dropped into my lap (figuratively speaking).

I was going to suggest A/UX but I see that model is not compatible.
Incompatible with the MacIvory Symbolics Lisp Machine too.
Mach Ten or find a copy of Macintosh Common Lisp for 68k?
Play obscure old games?
Donate to a Macintosh museum?
It was the fastest 68k machine Apple made but there's really nothing
all that special anymore that can only be done with them.

NetBSD is a possibility if you're looking for a Unix-like OS, and
http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/mac68k/
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mark Benson]

The AV in 840av Stands for 'Audio Vusual'. The line was intended as an
early Apple stab at the sound and video editting market. It is a nice piece
if architecture, and showed what could be done with a 68040 and some Fu.

The DSP3210 does indeed work (somewhat) for video acceleration, principly
because that couldn't be done with a 68k aline at the time. If you throw in
8MB of VRAM and a Spigot PowerAV card in the DSP expansion slot it'll just
about handle standard definition at 24fps in and out. It's biggest flaw is,
however, the onboard narrow SCSI II is way to slow to handle the IO
throughput of the video, so to do anything meaningful you need a FWB
Jackhammer Wide SCSI card some fast 68-pin disks, and RAID 0.

If you're interested in upspeccing it let me know, I have all the cards and
software (mine died last year, I'd had it since Uni days) but honestly it's
probably better donated to someone more interested in it's kudos as a Mac,
because it's just a bog basic 68040 Mac in a badly designed case in most
other senses.
--
Mark Benson

Yes, it had an AT&T DSP3210. I donb t think it was used for very much other
than video decoding.
As usual, it was offered to Commodore by AT&T for the Amiga 3000 but they
fucked it up somehow and Apple ended up with it.
Sent from my iPhone

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
didn't the 840AV have some onboard DSPs or something? They were used to

accelerate... something?

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:49:27 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: Re: [rescue] what can you do with an Apple Quadro 840AV

Post by William Barnett-Lewis

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
One of these sort of dropped into my lap (figuratively speaking).

I was going to suggest A/UX but I see that model is not compatible.
Incompatible with the MacIvory Symbolics Lisp Machine too.
Mach Ten or find a copy of Macintosh Common Lisp for 68k?
Play obscure old games?
Donate to a Macintosh museum?
It was the fastest 68k machine Apple made but there's really nothing
all that special anymore that can only be done with them.

NetBSD is a possibility if you're looking for a Unix-like OS, and
http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/mac68k/
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mauricio Tavares]

Yes, it had an AT&T DSP3210. I donb t think it was used for very much other
than video decoding.
As usual, it was offered to Commodore by AT&T for the Amiga 3000 but they
fucked it up somehow and Apple ended up with it.

I've always wanted an A3000T or an A4000T.
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Liam Proven]

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
One of these sort of dropped into my lap (figuratively speaking).

Wow. The fastest-ever 68K Mac. I was *just* too slow to get one on
Freecycle about a decade back. Always regretted it. I do like 68K Macs
a lot, and love classic MacOS.

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
Anything interesting that can be done with them?

Define "interesting". By Unix standards, no. It'll run some very basic
Unix-like OS which won't use any of the hardware's special features.
It can't run A/UX, which is an interesting Unix.

It'll run some lovely classic Mac apps, still capable of productive
use, and as such, serve as a lesson in why Apple is now a
near-trillion-dollar company. The single best-designed, friendliest,
most capable GUI ever written by anyone anywhere, and not a single
text config file or command line anywhere, because it doesn't need
them. And the last 68K version, MacOS 8.1, will go like stink on an
840AV.

--
Liam Proven b" Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: ***@cix.co.uk b" Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: ***@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven b" Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: [phone] b" DR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): [phone]
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Derrik Walker v2.0]

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
Anything interesting that can be done with them?
Define "interesting". By Unix standards, no. It'll run some very basic
Unix-like OS which won't use any of the hardware's special features.
It can't run A/UX, which is an interesting Unix.

You can run MachTen on it, and it will probably fly.
Maybe not as fast as it runs on Minivmac on my Ryzen Linux box, but it
still should be pretty fast.

--
-- Derrik

Derrik Walker v2.0, RHCE
***@doomd.net

"Those UNIX guys, they think weird!" -- John C. Dvorak

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Chris Hanson]

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
One of these sort of dropped into my lap (figuratively speaking).
Anything interesting that can be done with them?

You could find someone who wants one. :)

Really itbs one of the best system for running late-68000-era Mac software:
Itbs the fastest 68K system Apple released, itbll run a variety of System
Software releases (7.1 through 8.1), it can take a lot of RAM (128MB) and
peripherals, it has a bunch of interesting stuff built-in (GeoPort, DSP), and
did I mention itbs really fast?

Itbll definitely need a re-cap of course, but if it operates now youbre
probably not going to have to worry about repairing traces too. (At least as
long as you donbt hurt any during the re-cap.)

Itbs a great system for something like Macintosh Common Lisp. MCL 3.4 was
the last for 68K and should absolutely scream on that system.

-- Chris
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Liam Proven]

Really itb s one of the best system for running late-68000-era Mac

software:

I don't know if you know, but your email client is sending (lower-case
b, space) instead of (apostrophe). It makes reading your reply
difficult!

This is a common problem with iOS and smart quotes.

http://micro.cagrimmett.com/2017/09/08/how-to-turn-off-curly-quotes-in-ios-11
/


--
Liam Proven b" Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: ***@cix.co.uk b" Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: ***@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven b" Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: [phone] b" DR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): [phone]
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Richard]

In article

Post by Liam Proven

Really itb s one of the best system for running late-68000-era Mac

I don't know if you know, but your email client is sending (lower-case
b, space) instead of (apostrophe). It makes reading your reply
difficult!

I'm seeing lower-case-b, Ctrl+Y in his reply :-)
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mouse]

Post by Richard

Post by Liam Proven

Really itb s one of [...]

I don't know if you know, but your email client is sending
(lower-case b, space) instead of (apostrophe). It makes reading
your reply difficult!

I'm seeing lower-case-b, Ctrl+Y in his reply :-)

Me too, once I found it. (My mailer rejected it because it was marked
as being ASCII but contained control-Ys, which are not printable ASCII,
so it didn't arrive in my mailbox. But mail rejected for that reason
has a copy logged, which I found.)

I suspect the sender's UA actually generated the UTF-8 encoding of
Unicode codepoint 0x2019, RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK, whose UTF-8
encoding is 0xe2 0x80 0x99. The list then thew away the high bits,
leaving 0x62 0x00 0x19, and something dropped the resulting NUL,
leaving 0x62 (ASCII b) 0x19 (ASCII EM, control-Y). The list then
(mis)labeled the result as us-ascii - but, apparently, preserved the
original Mime-Version: and X-Mailer: headers; the former has a comment
"(Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\))" and the latter says "Apple Mail
(2.3445.6.18)".

That makes this the fallout from a collision between Apple Mail's
(incorrect) assumption that UTF-8-encoded Unicode is suitable for
everyone and the list's stripping high bits and mislabeling the result
as US-ASCII - and then (incorrectly) emitting the resulting malformed
mail.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML ***@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Chris Hanson]

Post by Mouse
That makes this the fallout from a collision between Apple Mail's
(incorrect) assumption that UTF-8-encoded Unicode is suitable for
everyone and the list's stripping high bits and mislabeling the result
as US-ASCII - and then (incorrectly) emitting the resulting malformed
mail.

UTF-8 encoded Unicode is, in fact, suitable for everyone these days.

The 7-bit ASCII era was over decades ago.

-- Chris
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Lionel Peterson]

It reminds me of 'mushmouth' from the Fat Albert cartoon series:

Lionel

Post by Chris Hanson

Post by Mouse
That makes this the fallout from a collision between Apple Mail's
(incorrect) assumption that UTF-8-encoded Unicode is suitable for
everyone and the list's stripping high bits and mislabeling the result
as US-ASCII - and then (incorrectly) emitting the resulting malformed
mail.

UTF-8 encoded Unicode is, in fact, suitable for everyone these days.
The 7-bit ASCII era was over decades ago.
-- Chris
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mouse]

Post by Chris Hanson

Post by Mouse
That makes this the fallout from a collision between Apple Mail's
(incorrect) assumption that UTF-8-encoded Unicode is suitable for
everyone and [...]

UTF-8 encoded Unicode is, in fact, suitable for everyone these days.

That...turns out not to be the case.

Of course, you may choose to continue believing it anyway.

As an existence proof by example, I can deal with it only with
substantial inconvenience; if I want to know what, for example, 0xe4
0xa2 0x81 represents, I have to convert to binary, extract the relevant
bits, paste them back together to get 4881, go to my Unicode
documentation directory, find the PDF containing that codepoint
(U3400.pdf for that example), page through it until I find the page
bearing 4881 (at ca. five seconds per page) and find the character.
(In the case of 4881, this would take minutes, at least; I actually
would probably stop upon discovering it's a CJK glyph, as I know only a
bare handful of them.)

As a further existence proof by example, consider this list, for which
this very thread indicates UTF-8-encoded Unicode is not suitable.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML ***@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Chris Hanson]

Post by Mouse

Post by Chris Hanson

Post by Mouse
That makes this the fallout from a collision between Apple Mail's
(incorrect) assumption that UTF-8-encoded Unicode is suitable for
everyone and [...]

UTF-8 encoded Unicode is, in fact, suitable for everyone these days.

That...turns out not to be the case.
Of course, you may choose to continue believing it anyway.
As an existence proof by example, I can deal with it only with
substantial inconvenience;

Based on things youbve said in the past, this is entirely by your own
obstinance, itbs not because youbre actually incapable of using a modern
MUA on a modern system to interact with the rest of the world.

Post by Mouse
As a further existence proof by example, consider this list, for which
this very thread indicates UTF-8-encoded Unicode is not suitable.

Again, the use of an archaic or broken version of mailman to run the mailing
list is a choice.

Everybody can run software that is able to deal with these decades-old
standards.

-- Chris
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Carl R. Friend]

Post by Chris Hanson
Based on things youbve said in the past, this is entirely by your own
obstinance, itbs not because youbre actually incapable of using a modern
MUA on a modern system to interact with the rest of the world.

Of note is that this is a crowd that tends to deal in the world of
"retro-computing" which rather strongly implies ASCII (likely '67,
but for the truly hard-core might be '63; even harder-core ones might
be using SIXBIT, or, for the heavy-metal types, EBCDIC). Some of us
actually use machines that are more than a few months old (sometimes
by years or decades older).

I mentally filter out the errant "b" characters knowing that they
are an artefact of a clueless implementation of something that "tried"
(not hard enough) to be backwards-compatible. Sometimes this can
yield humorous results, e.g. "o'stinance" from the first sentence in
the quote above (which got auto re-corrected following the auto-correct
for the botched character).

Post by Chris Hanson
Again, the use of an archaic or broken version of mailman to run the
mailing list is a choice.

See "retro-computing" above. Yes, it may well be by choice. But
why should I have to change my environment to flatter the Apple fanboys
with their iPhones?

Cheers.

[Jerry Kemp]

I was about to just blindly defend Mr. Bill, our very gracious host here, but I figured I better do some fact checking before I
stick my foot into my mouth.

Looking at everyone's mail header, I see the following

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

As I head over the the Mailman home page

<http://www.list.org/>

I see that there are (2) current version trains. Here is a direct cut-and-paste:::

The current stable GNU Mailman versions are:

19-Nov-2017 Mailman 3.1.1 (Between The Wheels)
04-Feb-2018 Mailman 2.1.26

I see that from the X-header version, vs the current 2.1.x version, there is a .06 variance.

I did review the change log, focusing in on the 2.1.20 to 2.1.27 versions, and, although I do see a few updates with translations to
several languages, nothing jumped out at me that would indicate there had been any changes (big or otherwise) to the UTF-8
implementation, in the 2.1.x train.

change logs here:

<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/NEWS>

In short, from my observations, I'm don't believe that an upgrade from 2.1.20 to 2.1.26/27 (current stable) would change UTF-8
behaviorism's. If someone else sees something I missed, please share.

Would an upgrade to the 3.1.x train help here? Certainly possible, someone else will need to review the specific update files. A
quick glance, however, was the only UTF-8 entry in the 3.1.x change log that I found:::

For Python versions earlier than 3.5, use a compatibility layer for a
backported smtpd module which can accept non-UTF-8 data. (Closes #140)

I think in closing, if I was in a foreign land, and the UTF-8 issues were more pronounced, I would probably care more about this.
Right now, it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me. All things being equal, I know that the last few years have been pretty
rough on Mr. Bill, and with all the crazy stuff going on in his personal life, I believe that I am pretty thankful that Mr. Bill is
still here, and providing all the things he does for us.

If you're still reading, thanks for wading thru my rant.

Happy Easter everyone,

Jerry

Post by Chris Hanson
Again, the use of an archaic or broken version of mailman to run the mailing
list is a choice.
Everybody can run software that is able to deal with these decades-old
standards.
-- Chris

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Ola Kaarina Isadora Hughson]

This topic is nice and all, but why are you speaking about a
non-existant computer?
Apple released Quadras, not Quadros.

[Patrick Giagnocavo]

25 messages and you are the first person to notice my spelling mistake!

Yes, it is the QuadrA , not QuadrO!

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:33 AM, Ola Kaarina Isadora Hughson

Post by Ola Kaarina Isadora Hughson
This topic is nice and all, but why are you speaking about a
non-existant computer?
Apple released Quadras, not Quadros.
--
(-)
Ola Kaarina Isadora Hughson
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Steve Hatle]

Oh, we noticed - just to polite to say anything :-)

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
25 messages and you are the first person to notice my spelling mistake!
Yes, it is the QuadrA , not QuadrO!
On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:33 AM, Ola Kaarina Isadora Hughson

Post by Ola Kaarina Isadora Hughson
This topic is nice and all, but why are you speaking about a
non-existant computer?
Apple released Quadras, not Quadros.
--
(-)
Ola Kaarina Isadora Hughson
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Toby Thain]

Post by Ola Kaarina Isadora Hughson
This topic is nice and all, but why are you speaking about a
non-existant computer?
Apple released Quadras, not Quadros.

Why did you use a non-existent word?
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mouse]

Post by Jerry Kemp

Post by Chris Hanson
Again, the use of an archaic or broken version of mailman to run the
mailing list is a choice.

I was about to just blindly defend Mr. Bill, our very gracious host
here, but I figured I better do some fact checking before I stick my
foot into my mouth. [...research...]

Also, the "Everybody can run software that is able to deal with these
decades-old standards" is at least a little disingenuous. It's a
little like replying to "I don't have any way to run SPARC code" with
"Everybody can get a SPARC or install an emulator".

Yes, I probably could, I don't know, install a Windows box or
something, and thereby get UTF-8 and Unicode support. That does not
make UTF-8-encoded Unicode suitable for everyone!

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML ***@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Patrick Finnegan]

Post by Mouse

Post by Jerry Kemp

Post by Chris Hanson
Again, the use of an archaic or broken version of mailman to run the
mailing list is a choice.

I was about to just blindly defend Mr. Bill, our very gracious host
here, but I figured I better do some fact checking before I stick my
foot into my mouth. [...research...]

Also, the "Everybody can run software that is able to deal with these
decades-old standards" is at least a little disingenuous. It's a
little like replying to "I don't have any way to run SPARC code" with
"Everybody can get a SPARC or install an emulator".
Yes, I probably could, I don't know, install a Windows box or
something, and thereby get UTF-8 and Unicode support. That does not
make UTF-8-encoded Unicode suitable for everyone!

Even xterm supports UTF-8 encoding... I presume a modern copy of that
will compile on just about any classic UNIX-y OS.

Pat
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Phil Stracchino]

Post by Patrick Finnegan

Post by Mouse
Yes, I probably could, I don't know, install a Windows box or
something, and thereby get UTF-8 and Unicode support. That does not
make UTF-8-encoded Unicode suitable for everyone!

Even xterm supports UTF-8 encoding... I presume a modern copy of that
will compile on just about any classic UNIX-y OS.

...Though I recently switched some of my desktop tasks from xterm to
rxvt-unicode because xterm handles UTF-8 so *poorly*.

[David Griffith]

Post by Phil Stracchino

Post by Patrick Finnegan

Post by Mouse
Yes, I probably could, I don't know, install a Windows box or
something, and thereby get UTF-8 and Unicode support. That does not
make UTF-8-encoded Unicode suitable for everyone!

Even xterm supports UTF-8 encoding... I presume a modern copy of that
will compile on just about any classic UNIX-y OS.

...Though I recently switched some of my desktop tasks from xterm to
rxvt-unicode because xterm handles UTF-8 so *poorly*.
--
Phil Stracchino
Babylon Communications
Landline: +1.603.293.8485
Mobile: [phone]
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

rxvt would be nice if the maintainers would add vt220 support.

[Mouse]

Post by Patrick Finnegan
Even xterm supports UTF-8 encoding...

"xterm" is not a single thing. Some versions of xterm do, perhaps.

Post by Patrick Finnegan
I presume a modern copy of that will compile on just about any
classic UNIX-y OS.

That might even be true. But, even if it is, xterm still lacks much
that my terminal emulator provides. Perhaps the most significant is
multi-display (and no-display) support, but there are others (such as,
as of last time I looked, which admittedly was a while ago, correctly
working wrap, a blinking cursor, and Mac-style pointer hiding).

I've considered trying to add some form of Unicode support to mine.
Perhaps someday I'll find the round tuits, but it is not a high
priority for me. (I'd also need Unicode fonts; something is wrong with
either the iso10646 fonts I have or the X server I have, because they
do not work together.)

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML ***@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Lionel Peterson]

I'm confused, what is the point of this debate/discussion (which has, for the
most part, been quite civil)?

That UTF-8 is preferable to other character encodings?

That it's the list owner's fault the mail list software doesn't cleanly handle
UTF-8?

That it's the reader's fault the mail list software doesn't cleanly handle
UTF-8?

That curly quotes are the responsibility of the person doing layout?

Or something else?

Lionel

Post by Mouse

Post by Patrick Finnegan
Even xterm supports UTF-8 encoding...

"xterm" is not a single thing. Some versions of xterm do, perhaps

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Toby Thain]

Post by Lionel Peterson
That UTF-8 is preferable to other character encodings?

I would argue yes it is, or at least Unicode is. ...

Thanks Mike for FINALLY changing the subject line -- surely the most
basic point of list/email etiquette -- but now can we finally change the
SUBJECT. To Rescue.

Thanks for attending my TED talk

--Toby
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[John Floren]

Post by Mouse

Post by Jerry Kemp

Post by Chris Hanson
Again, the use of an archaic or broken version of mailman to run the
mailing list is a choice.

I was about to just blindly defend Mr. Bill, our very gracious host
here, but I figured I better do some fact checking before I stick my
foot into my mouth. [...research...]

Also, the "Everybody can run software that is able to deal with these
decades-old standards" is at least a little disingenuous. It's a
little like replying to "I don't have any way to run SPARC code" with
"Everybody can get a SPARC or install an emulator".
Yes, I probably could, I don't know, install a Windows box or
something, and thereby get UTF-8 and Unicode support. That does not
make UTF-8-encoded Unicode suitable for everyone!

I've got some Plan 9 install images if that'll help, they've supported
native UTF-8 since 1993 or so :)

(personally I find Apple's insistence of changing regular quotes to
typographic quotes pretty stupid, but not as stupid as GMail's
continued attempts to switch over to HTML mode whenever it thinks it
can get away with it, grr)

john
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Nathan Raymond]

Post by John Floren
(personally I find Apple's insistence of changing regular quotes to
typographic quotes pretty stupid, but not as stupid as GMail's
continued attempts to switch over to HTML mode whenever it thinks it
can get away with it, grr)

I agree, if by "insistence" you mean a default setting that I question
whether it should be default (System Preferences > Keyboard > Text > "Use
smart quotes dashes" in OS X/macOS, Settings > General > Keyboard > "Smart
Punctuation" in iOS). I have no issue that the feature/setting was created,
but why make it default and with zero fanfare to the change? The problem it
solves (making it somewhat easier to determine whether quoted text is
starting or ending by having quote marks tilted or flipped as distinct
openers and closers vs. agnostic quote marks) seems to not be worth the
trade-off of introducing high-ASCII/UTF-8 requirement where formally there
was none (and all the downsides of needing to support/respect non-7bit
ASCII for communication). And I'm personally perturbed by having to
cross-check any scripts or code posted to the internet for inadvertent
smart quotes (which of course does not parse in any dev environment I am
aware of). That sort of code corruption is very aggravating to me.

- Nate
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Richard]

Post by Chris Hanson
UTF-8 encoded Unicode is, in fact, suitable for everyone these days.
The 7-bit ASCII era was over decades ago.

...but this is gratuitous UTF-8 here. You're not conveying anything
that isn't perfectly representable as 7-bit ASCII. It's not as if
you're posting replies in Mandarin.

[Dave McGuire]

On March 27, 2018 6:56:02 PM Richard <***@xmission.com> wrote:
In article <1459A8E2-31F3-4775-9FF3-***@eschatologist.net>,
Chris Hanson <***@eschatologist.net> writes:

UTF-8 encoded Unicode is, in fact, suitable for everyone these days.

The 7-bit ASCII era was over decades ago.

...but this is gratuitous UTF-8 here. You're not conveying anything
that isn't perfectly representable as 7-bit ASCII. It's not as if
you're posting replies in Mandarin.


This might be the only time that you'll see this, but I have to agree with
Richard. There's no point to UTF-8 here. Or in most other English-dominated
fora for that matter, no matter how snooty one may be about proclaiming
obsolescence.

-Dave

[Dave McGuire]

(ack, please pardon that awful formatting, I'm typing on my phone)

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Post by Chris Hanson
UTF-8 encoded Unicode is, in fact, suitable for everyone these days.
The 7-bit ASCII era was over decades ago.
...but this is gratuitous UTF-8 here. You're not conveying anything
that isn't perfectly representable as 7-bit ASCII. It's not as if
you're posting replies in Mandarin.
This might be the only time that you'll see this, but I have to agree with
Richard. There's no point to UTF-8 here. Or in most other

English-dominated

Post by Chris Hanson
fora for that matter, no matter how snooty one may be about proclaiming
obsolescence.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mike Meredith]

Post by Dave McGuire
This might be the only time that you'll see this, but I have to agree
with Richard. There's no point to UTF-8 here. Or in most other
English-dominated fora for that matter, no matter how snooty one may
be about proclaiming obsolescence.

Without intending to re-open the debate (this is Bill's list run
according to his preferences), and being particularly pedantic (I work
in IT; it's an occupational hazard or even disease), there are in fact
use cases for Unicode in English - the thorn (C>), the 'ae' and 'oe'
ligatures, 'unusual' punctuation (interrobang, the irony mark, etc.).

And yes there are places 'out there' where non-ASCII graphemes are used
for English.

Of course 'smart' quotes are the least sensible reason for switching
any list to UTF-8.

--
Mike Meredith (http://zonky.org/)
It's a bad idea to let third parties generate outbound mail
traffic from your mail system to destinations of THEIR choice.

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Phil Stracchino]

Post by Mike Meredith

Post by Dave McGuire
This might be the only time that you'll see this, but I have to agree
with Richard. There's no point to UTF-8 here. Or in most other
English-dominated fora for that matter, no matter how snooty one may
be about proclaiming obsolescence.

Without intending to re-open the debate (this is Bill's list run
according to his preferences), and being particularly pedantic (I work
in IT; it's an occupational hazard or even disease), there are in fact
use cases for Unicode in English - the thorn (C>), the 'ae' and 'oe'
ligatures, 'unusual' punctuation (interrobang, the irony mark, etc.).

I fairly commonly use the thorn and ae/oe, and less commonly eth; the
interrobang is well known to me; but today is the first I had heard of
the irony mark.

I suppose it's just as well that it never caught on. I can only imagine
how it would be misused, overused and abused were it commonly known today.

[Chris Hanson]

Post by Richard

Post by Chris Hanson
UTF-8 encoded Unicode is, in fact, suitable for everyone these days.
The 7-bit ASCII era was over decades ago.

...but this is gratuitous UTF-8 here. You're not conveying anything
that isn't perfectly representable as 7-bit ASCII. It's not as if
you're posting replies in Mandarin.

This stuff worked just fine on the Andrew Message System and NeXT nearly
thirty years ago.

Ibm not going to worry about disabling the automatic use of proper
typography on the systems I use just for one broken mailing list.

-- Chris
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Richard]

Ib^Ym not going to worry about disabling the automatic use of proper
typography [....]

Above is how all your messages look. If you truly care about "proper
typography", then you don't want to look like a dufus that keeps
typing b^Y all the time, do you?

[Liam Proven]

Post by Richard
Above is how all your messages look. If you truly care about "proper
typography", then you don't want to look like a dufus that keeps
typing b^Y all the time, do you?

This.

I do not object to judicious use of Unicode or extended ANSI
characters where they convey info. Sometimes it's useful to say "I
have 4 C 300GB disks" or 3B=" vs. 5B<" floppies or that it's 7B0C today.

But curly quotes add nothing meaningful at all. As a journo I am
strictly forbidden from using them by all my editors ever, because
they don't transmit safely and they are the job of the people doing
layout to get right, not mine.

Using curly quotes in email is basically intentionally turning your
mails into alphabet soup unless you're directly contacting someone
else using the same platform, and it may not work then.

Also, they are not international. French uses B+guillemetsB;. Czech
quotes, where I live, look like ,,this`` -- the opening ones are at
the bottom and the closing ones at the top, and what I as a Brit
consider opening and closing are reversed.

IOW Anglophone conventions do not translate internationally and are
actively obfuscatory.

It is not merely foolish and wrong to use them, it is _rude_.

--
Liam Proven b" Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: ***@cix.co.uk b" Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: ***@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven b" Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: [phone] b" DR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): [phone]
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Peter Corlett]

I don't know if you know, but your email client is sending (lower-case b,
space) instead of (apostrophe). It makes reading your reply difficult!

This looks very much like UTF-8 that has been mangled by an intemediate
mailserver that is not 8 bit clean and is silently corrupting mail in transit.
There's no excuse for running such a server in 2018; it's no longer an
ASCII-only world. The immediate suspect is the mailing list software, since
mailman is rather long in the tooth.

[Testing a few different characters to see what, if anything, gets broken in
this message. ISO-8859-1: 'B#', ISO-8859-15: 'b,', Windows-1252: 'b', Unicode
within BMP: 'b', Unicode outside BMP: 'p<'.]

This is a common problem with iOS and smart quotes.
http://micro.cagrimmett.com/2017/09/08/how-to-turn-off-curly-quotes-in-ios-11

That's a fix for a subtly different problem, where the mail client is silently
corrupting messages before they're sent. Occasionally one actually intends to
use smartquotes; but they sometimes break things because some mail clients use
Windows-1252 encoding to save a few bytes over UTF-8, but mark as
charset="us-ascii" or omit charset completely. I tested how well desktop
Mail.app handles encodings a while back, and it does get it right. The iOS mail
client is a sadistic joke, and I recommend only using it in an emergency.
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Chris Hanson]

Post by Liam Proven

Really itb s one of the best system for running late-68000-era Mac

I don't know if you know, but your email client is sending (lower-case
b, space) instead of (apostrophe). It makes reading your reply
difficult!

Nope, not my client. Herebs what was sent:

From: Chris Hanson <***@eschatologist.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\))

Post by Liam Proven
This is a common problem with iOS and smart quotes.

http://micro.cagrimmett.com/2017/09/08/how-to-turn-off-curly-quotes-in-ios-11

Post by Liam Proven
/

MIME and UTF-8 are twenty five years old at this point.

Itbs also ridiculous to expect users to accommodate broken software.

-- Chris
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Lionel Peterson]

While we're on the topic of 68000 Macs, I feel a need to offer up my "Guide to
the Macintosh Family Hardware", according to the cover it spans the Plus, SE,
SE/30, Portable, II, IIx, IIcx, IIci, and IIfx.

It's in great shape.

Free to a good home, for postage plus...

Lionel

Post by Patrick Giagnocavo
One of these sort of dropped into my lap (figuratively speaking).
Anything interesting that can be done with them?
Cheers
Patrick
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[alex d]

[..lots of snips about UTF-8 and typography and char codes and absolutely nothing to do with a Quadra 840AV...]

[demime removed a uuencoded section named msg_uuencode which was 6 lines]
8-)

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of msg_uuencode]
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue