[rescue] SCSI solutions for Sparcstation Voyager

[Steve Hatle]

I'm pulling out my Voyager to play with again. I need to deal with the IDPROM,
which has multiple solutions, but I'm nervous about the internal 2.5" SCSI
drive. It's working now (knock on wood) but I know I should consider a
replacement for this guy.

I've had good luck with full size SCSI2SD in my Macs, and there is a 2.5"
version available - not sure yet of physical compatibility with Voyager. I've
also seen mention of some SCSI to CF adapters for these drives for older
Powerbooks, etc.

I figured it was worth it to ask if anyone has good or bad recommendations for
2.5" SCSI drive replacements for Voyager before I plunk down any money
anywhere.

Thanks,

Steve
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[Mouse]

> I'm pulling out my Voyager to play with again.

Sweet toy, innit? :-)

> [...] I'm nervous about the internal 2.5" SCSI drive. It's working
> now (knock on wood) but I know I should consider a replacement for
> this guy.

For my Voyager, I found a SCSI-to-IDE adapter that was thin enough that
(and mounted such that) when combined with a thin (~5mm thick) IDE
laptop drive, the result fit in the Voyager.

Unfortunately I don't have details, and my Voyager is in storage at the
moment. There is a (discouragingly small) chance I may be able to dig
it out and look at it soon, but, if not, I hope that simply knowing
such adapters exist may be of some use to you.

And, if it's an option for you, there's always netboot.

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[Peter Stokes]

Hi

That is interesting as the SCSI cable is an odd one and there were limited
drives unless you have an adapter cable

I would also be interested in knowing what you used no hurry....

Peter

Sent from my iPhone

On 8 Nov 2018, at 18:45, Mouse <***@Rodents-Montreal.ORG> wrote:

>> I'm pulling out my Voyager to play with again.
>
> Sweet toy, innit? :-)
>
>> [...] I'm nervous about the internal 2.5" SCSI drive. It's working
>> now (knock on wood) but I know I should consider a replacement for
>> this guy.
>
> For my Voyager, I found a SCSI-to-IDE adapter that was thin enough that
> (and mounted such that) when combined with a thin (~5mm thick) IDE
> laptop drive, the result fit in the Voyager.
>
> Unfortunately I don't have details, and my Voyager is in storage at the
> moment. There is a (discouragingly small) chance I may be able to dig
> it out and look at it soon, but, if not, I hope that simply knowing
> such adapters exist may be of some use to you.
>
> And, if it's an option for you, there's always netboot.
>
> /~\ The ASCII Mouse
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[Mouse]

> That is interesting as the SCSI cable is an odd one and there were
> limited drives unless you have an adapter cable

My recollection is that it was a perfectly ordinary SCSI cable, except
that the pin spacing on the drive end is tighter - much as is true of
laptop IDE drives: they are ordinary IDE connectors except with tighter
pin spacing.

As I recall, the adapter I found had the same interface (same pinout,
same pin spacing) as the (laptop) SCSI drive I was replacing.

> I would also be interested in knowing what you used no hurry....

I'll see how feasible it is to get to the Voyager. I might be able to
get you a name, and I should be able to check my recollection. Once I
find it, which, as I say, may not be soon.

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[Liam Proven]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at 20:20, Mouse <***@rodents-montreal.org> wrote:

> much as is true of
> laptop IDE drives: they are ordinary IDE connectors except with tighter
> pin spacing.

But laptop IDE drives also include power across the IDC connector,
whereas desktop drives use a Molex. So a laptop drive cable isn't just
a desktop 40-pin to laptop 40-pin one -- at least the extra wires need
to be split off and connected to a power plug. I have at least one
such cable somewhere, although more recently, little adaptor gadgets
became cheap and plentiful.

--
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[Martin Marshall]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rescue [mailto:rescue-***@sunhelp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 11:46 AM
> To: The Rescue List
> Subject: Re: [rescue] SCSI solutions for Sparcstation Voyager
>
> For my Voyager, I found a SCSI-to-IDE adapter that was thin enough that
> (and mounted such that) when combined with a thin (~5mm thick) IDE
> laptop drive, the result fit in the Voyager.
>
> Unfortunately I don't have details, and my Voyager is in storage at the
> moment. There is a (discouragingly small) chance I may be able to dig
> it out and look at it soon, but, if not, I hope that simply knowing
> such adapters exist may be of some use to you.

I believe that Mouse is thinking of the ADTX SCSI to IDE laptop drive
adapter. It is mounted to a thin 2.5" IDE drive and converts to the proper
pins for a 2.5" SCSI drive. I have used them in Suns (Voyager and
SPARCbook). There were a couple of varieties that could use various
capacity IDE drives. Ones that I used were limited to a maximum size of 8GB
for the IDE disk.

Finding one may be difficult. I searched eBay for them about 10 - 15 years
ago and they were hard to find. Do a Google for "ADTX scsi to ide" and you
can find info and images. Good luck finding one now.

Martin Marshall
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[Mouse]

>> For my Voyager, I found a SCSI-to-IDE adapter that was thin enough
>> that (and mounted such that) when combined with a thin (~5mm thick)
>> IDE laptop drive, the result fit in the Voyager. [...]
> I believe that Mouse is thinking of the ADTX SCSI to IDE laptop drive
> adapter.

Possibly. The name doesn't sound right, but those memories are old
enough that I have little confidence that that means anything. (It was
back in the late '80s or early '90s that I did that conversion.)

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[Steve Hatle]

Yes - he was thinking of ADTX...

This thread reminded me of the fact that some late model Powerbooks had
these adapters. A trip to the basement of doom this afternoon turned up
a Powerbook that had an ADTX adapter in it with a 2GB Toshiba drive. The
IDE drive was bad, but more digging turned up a 6.4GB laptop drive.
Plugged the two together and into the Voyager, and now probe-scsi is
showing the ADTX device at SCSI ID 3.

So - now off to find some install media...

I need to deal with the IDPROM, and may still consider a SCSI2SD, but
that's a little more back-burner now.

Thanks to all of you for the discussion and the reminder that provided
the solution!

Steve

Mouse wrote on 11/11/18 9:43 AM:
>>> For my Voyager, I found a SCSI-to-IDE adapter that was thin enough
>>> that (and mounted such that) when combined with a thin (~5mm thick)
>>> IDE laptop drive, the result fit in the Voyager. [...]
>> I believe that Mouse is thinking of the ADTX SCSI to IDE laptop drive
>> adapter.
>
> Possibly. The name doesn't sound right, but those memories are old
> enough that I have little confidence that that means anything. (It was
> back in the late '80s or early '90s that I did that conversion.)
>
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[Mauricio Tavares]

An odd request: for those who have said adapter, please document the
pinout. AFAIK, it is just a cable, so with that info new shining
cables can be made.
On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 7:17 PM Steve Hatle <***@nfldinet.com> wrote:
>
> Yes - he was thinking of ADTX...
>
> This thread reminded me of the fact that some late model Powerbooks had
> these adapters. A trip to the basement of doom this afternoon turned up
> a Powerbook that had an ADTX adapter in it with a 2GB Toshiba drive. The
> IDE drive was bad, but more digging turned up a 6.4GB laptop drive.
> Plugged the two together and into the Voyager, and now probe-scsi is
> showing the ADTX device at SCSI ID 3.
>
> So - now off to find some install media...
>
> I need to deal with the IDPROM, and may still consider a SCSI2SD, but
> that's a little more back-burner now.
>
> Thanks to all of you for the discussion and the reminder that provided
> the solution!
>
> Steve
>
> Mouse wrote on 11/11/18 9:43 AM:
> >>> For my Voyager, I found a SCSI-to-IDE adapter that was thin enough
> >>> that (and mounted such that) when combined with a thin (~5mm thick)
> >>> IDE laptop drive, the result fit in the Voyager. [...]
> >> I believe that Mouse is thinking of the ADTX SCSI to IDE laptop drive
> >> adapter.
> >
> > Possibly. The name doesn't sound right, but those memories are old
> > enough that I have little confidence that that means anything. (It was
> > back in the late '80s or early '90s that I did that conversion.)
> >
> > /~\ The ASCII Mouse
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> > rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
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[Michael Parson]

On 2018-11-12 05:17, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> An odd request: for those who have said adapter, please document the
> pinout. AFAIK, it is just a cable, so with that info new shining
> cables can be made.

It should just be a 2.5" 44pin/wire cable, like this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UMXATCY

My guess is that the 2.5" SCSI drives didn't use 1 to 1 data/ground like
the full-size 50 pin SCSI did.

--
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ
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[Steve Hatle]

Steve Hatle wrote on 11/11/18 6:17 PM:
> Yes - he was thinking of ADTX...
>
> This thread reminded me of the fact that some late model Powerbooks had
> these adapters. A trip to the basement of doom this afternoon turned up
> a Powerbook that had an ADTX adapter in it with a 2GB Toshiba drive. The
> IDE drive was bad, but more digging turned up a 6.4GB laptop drive.
> Plugged the two together and into the Voyager, and now probe-scsi is
> showing the ADTX device at SCSI ID 3.
>
> So - now off to find some install media...
>
> I need to deal with the IDPROM, and may still consider a SCSI2SD, but
> that's a little more back-burner now.
>
> Thanks to all of you for the discussion and the reminder that provided
> the solution!
>
> Steve


OK - Voyager has a 6GB disk via ADTX adapter, a refurbed IDPROM battery
via Glitchworks (http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1 - I
used his 48t08 board) and a fresh install of OpenBSD 5.9. All is good!

One thing, though... the LED on the front of the machine is flashing
while it's running. I can't find any doc that say why that might be,
except a note in the service manual that says that LED will be lit if
"the machine is running normally". All the diags pass as best I can
tell, and as I say the machine runs fine, so it's an annoyance more than
anything else. I need to dig to find my Field Engineer's Guide, but
thought perhaps the collective might have an insight.

I forgot how much I liked this guy! Now to get #2 back up and running.
That one has NeXTSTEP on the HD :-)

Steve
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[Ron Wickersham]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018, Steve Hatle wrote:

---snip---

> One thing, though... the LED on the front of the machine is flashing while
> it's running. I can't find any doc that say why that might be, except a note
> in the service manual that says that LED will be lit if "the machine is
> running normally". All the diags pass as best I can tell, and as I say the
> machine runs fine, so it's an annoyance more than anything else. I need to dig
> to find my Field Engineer's Guide, but thought perhaps the collective might
> have an insight.

check the man page for "led". in a sparc classic i had the led blinked to
identify that it was running OpenBSD, long ago with an earlier release of
the operating system. the current man page says sysctl(2) variable
"machdep.led_blink" now blinks based on the load average on most systems
by setting this parameter to a non-zero value.

-ron
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[systems_glitch]

OpenBSD-CURRENT does that on SPARC64, I've got a CP1500 deployed where
it'll blink the READY LED related to loadavg.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 5:58 PM Ron Wickersham <***@alembic.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2018, Steve Hatle wrote:
>
> ---snip---
>
> > One thing, though... the LED on the front of the machine is flashing
> while
> > it's running. I can't find any doc that say why that might be, except a
> note
> > in the service manual that says that LED will be lit if "the machine is
> > running normally". All the diags pass as best I can tell, and as I say
> the
> > machine runs fine, so it's an annoyance more than anything else. I need
> to dig
> > to find my Field Engineer's Guide, but thought perhaps the collective
> might
> > have an insight.
>
> check the man page for "led". in a sparc classic i had the led blinked to
> identify that it was running OpenBSD, long ago with an earlier release of
> the operating system. the current man page says sysctl(2) variable
> "machdep.led_blink" now blinks based on the load average on most systems
> by setting this parameter to a non-zero value.
>
> -ron
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
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[Hauke Fath]

At 18:44 Uhr -0500 19.11.2018, systems_glitch wrote:
>OpenBSD-CURRENT does that on SPARC64,

No doubt about that, but I think NetBSD/sparc had the LED blink where
possible back when OpenBSD was but a gleam in its founder's mind's eye...
(mouse?)

Cheerio,
hauke



--
"It's never straight up and down" (DEVO)
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[Mouse]

>> OpenBSD-CURRENT does that on SPARC64,

> No doubt about that, but I think NetBSD/sparc had the LED blink where
> possible back when OpenBSD was but a gleam in its founder's mind's
> eye... (mouse?)

You rang? :-)

I know NetBSD/sun3 did a Cylon imitation on hardware that could (like
the -3/60) back then (I recall adding /dev/leds support). I _think_ it
did on at least some SPARCs, but I don't recall whether that includes
sparc64; back before the OpenBSD split, the only SPARCs I really used
(and certainly all the ones I ran NetBSD on) were 32-bit. I am
reasonably sure it did LED blinking on at least some of the sparc32s.

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[Hauke Fath]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 15:09:33 -0500 (EST), Mouse wrote:
> I am reasonably sure it did LED blinking on at least some of the sparc32s.

I am sure about the SS{10,20}, having run both as home servers for
years. I don't think the lunch box sun4c machines were set up for LED
software control, and nor is the SS2 clone I have.

@workplace, we run an Ultra 1 with NetBSD/sparc64 for conserver (2x
spif), but I don't think there is any LED activity.

Cheerio,
hauke

--
Hauke Fath <***@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE>
Ernst-Ludwig-Stra_e 15
64625 Bensheim
Germany
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[Michael Parson]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018, Mouse wrote:

>>> For my Voyager, I found a SCSI-to-IDE adapter that was thin enough
>>> that (and mounted such that) when combined with a thin (~5mm thick)
>>> IDE laptop drive, the result fit in the Voyager. [...]
>> I believe that Mouse is thinking of the ADTX SCSI to IDE laptop drive
>> adapter.
>
> Possibly. The name doesn't sound right, but those memories are old
> enough that I have little confidence that that means anything. (It was
> back in the late '80s or early '90s that I did that conversion.)

There were at least 2 different laptop IDE to SCSI adapters around. The
ADTX one had an 8 gig limit and was reportedly pretty slow. I have the
other one somewhere around here, info on it is in the sparcbook list
archives, I used a 20 gig drive with it in my 3GX.

--
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ
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[Michael Parson]

On 2018-11-12 21:48, Michael Parson wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2018, Mouse wrote:
>
>>>> For my Voyager, I found a SCSI-to-IDE adapter that was thin enough
>>>> that (and mounted such that) when combined with a thin (~5mm thick)
>>>> IDE laptop drive, the result fit in the Voyager. [...]
>>> I believe that Mouse is thinking of the ADTX SCSI to IDE laptop drive
>>> adapter.
>>
>> Possibly. The name doesn't sound right, but those memories are old
>> enough that I have little confidence that that means anything. (It
>> was
>> back in the late '80s or early '90s that I did that conversion.)
>
> There were at least 2 different laptop IDE to SCSI adapters around.
> The
> ADTX one had an 8 gig limit and was reportedly pretty slow. I have the
> other one somewhere around here, info on it is in the sparcbook list
> archives, I used a 20 gig drive with it in my 3GX.

Not really much more info, but in a thread where we were discussing
them:

http://www.sunhelp.org/pipermail/sparcbook/2005-October/003061.html

--
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ
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[Mouse]

> Not really much more info, but in a thread where we were discussing
> them:

> http://www.sunhelp.org/pipermail/sparcbook/2005-October/003061.html

That thread includes a dmesg quote

sd0 at scsibus0 target 3 lun 0: <ADTX, AXSITS2532U 011D, E4.0> disk fixed

which reminded me I might have a backup image of my Tadpole install
around. I checked, and I did. The disk on that one shows up as

mainbus0 (root): Tadpole_S3GX: hostid 80ae2125
...
iommu0 at mainbus0 addr 0x10000000: version 0x4/0x0, page-size 4096, range 64MB
sbus0 at iommu0: clock = 22 MHz
...
dma0 at sbus0 slot 4 offset 0x8400000: DMA rev 2
esp0 at dma0 slot 4 offset 0x8800000 level 4: ESP200, 40MHz, SCSI ID 7
scsibus0 at esp0: 8 targets, 8 luns per target
...
scsibus0: waiting 2 seconds for devices to settle...
sd0 at scsibus0 target 0 lun 0: <COMPAQ, BD03664553, 3B05> disk fixed
sd0: 34732 MB, 14002 cyl, 20 head, 254 sec, 512 bytes/sect x 71132000 sectors
sd0: sync (100.00ns offset 15), 8-bit (10.000MB/s) transfers, tagged queueing

which does not match the <ADTX, ...> pattern, leading me to think I
have a different adapter, one which reflects the ATA disk's ID strings
to the SCSI host.

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[Michael-John Turner]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:15:49AM -0500, Mouse wrote:
>scsibus0: waiting 2 seconds for devices to settle...
>sd0 at scsibus0 target 0 lun 0: <COMPAQ, BD03664553, 3B05> disk fixed
>sd0: 34732 MB, 14002 cyl, 20 head, 254 sec, 512 bytes/sect x 71132000 sectors
>sd0: sync (100.00ns offset 15), 8-bit (10.000MB/s) transfers, tagged queueing
>
>which does not match the <ADTX, ...> pattern, leading me to think I
>have a different adapter, one which reflects the ATA disk's ID strings
>to the SCSI host.

That disk size looked a bit odd for an IDE drive so I checked the model
number and apparently a Compaq BD03664553 is a 36.4GB U160 SCA drive.
Strange - you weren't using an external disk were you?

Cheers, MJ
--
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[Mouse]

>> sd0 at scsibus0 target 0 lun 0: <COMPAQ, BD03664553, 3B05> disk fixed

> That disk size looked a bit odd for an IDE drive so I checked the
> model number and apparently a Compaq BD03664553 is a 36.4GB U160 SCA
> drive. Strange - you weren't using an external disk were you?

Possibly! It would have surprised me, but if that's what that drive
is, I agree that's the most plausible explanation: the boot represented
in the backup snapshot was off an external drive, and it says nothing
about my adapter.

Makes me wonder why I would have done that - did my adapter break or
something? Now I'm curious. I'll have to see if I can find the silly
thing in storage.

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[Mike Spooner]

The Addonics ADTX is limited to 8Gb capacity (works with some older
larger-capacity drives, eg: 40Gb, but only the 1st 8Gb usable) and in my
experience the adaptor is rather slow, circa 600 Kb/sec max. through the
filesystem.

-- Mike Spooner

--------- Original Message ---------
From: Martin Marshall
To: 'The Rescue List'
Date: Thu Nov 08 21:46:55 GMT+00:00 2018
Subject: Re: [rescue] SCSI solutions for Sparcstation Voyager
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rescue [mailto:rescue-***@sunhelp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 11:46 AM
> To: The Rescue List
> Subject: Re: [rescue] SCSI solutions for Sparcstation Voyager
>
> For my Voyager, I found a SCSI-to-IDE adapter that was thin enough that
> (and mounted such that) when combined with a thin (~5mm thick) IDE
> laptop drive, the result fit in the Voyager.
>
> Unfortunately I don't have details, and my Voyager is in storage at the
> moment. There is a (discouragingly small) chance I may be able to dig
> it out and look at it soon, but, if not, I hope that simply knowing
> such adapters exist may be of some use to you.

I believe that Mouse is thinking of the ADTX SCSI to IDE laptop drive
adapter. It is mounted to a thin 2.5" IDE drive and converts to the
proper
pins for a 2.5" SCSI drive. I have used them in Suns (Voyager and
SPARCbook). There were a couple of varieties that could use various
capacity IDE drives. Ones that I used were limited to a maximum size of
8GB
for the IDE disk.

Finding one may be difficult. I searched eBay for them about 10 - 15
years
ago and they were hard to find. Do a Google for "ADTX scsi to ide" and
you
can find info and images. Good luck finding one now.

Martin Marshall
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