Discussion:
cheap gps for time reference
(too old to reply)
Scott Newell
2002-07-05 01:34:14 UTC
Permalink
<http://www.bgmicro.com/lmad.htm>http://www.bgmicro.com/lmad.htm

$25 gps receivers with 1Hz output, might be good timing references for ntpd.
They appear to be a few years old.


newell
Mark Price
2002-07-05 02:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Who is knowledgable when it comes to GPS gear?

Could these be hooked up to a serial port for actual position tracking?
Like, could I carry it around with a laptop in my car/boat?

Mark
Post by Scott Newell
<http://www.bgmicro.com/lmad.htm>http://www.bgmicro.com/lmad.htm
$25 gps receivers with 1Hz output, might be good timing references for ntpd.
They appear to be a few years old.
newell
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Scott Newell
2002-07-05 02:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Price
Could these be hooked up to a serial port for actual position tracking?
Like, could I carry it around with a laptop in my car/boat?
You'll need a source of regulated 5V dc power--steal from a keyboard or
mouse connector, maybe a USB port? The serial output isn't RS-232, so
you'd need a level converter chip to convert it to something the serial
port would recognize. Finally, the units don't output NMEA sentences out
of the box, but apparently can be modified to do so by a firmware update.
It also appears to be a bare board and patch antenna, so some kind of
enclosure would be a good idea too.

So yeah, you probably can. But it's not quite plug and play.


newell
Mark Price
2002-07-05 02:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Replying off-list....
Post by Scott Newell
Post by Mark Price
Could these be hooked up to a serial port for actual position tracking?
Like, could I carry it around with a laptop in my car/boat?
You'll need a source of regulated 5V dc power--steal from a keyboard or
mouse connector, maybe a USB port?
Hmm that shouldn't be too much of a problem
Post by Scott Newell
The serial output isn't RS-232, so
you'd need a level converter chip to convert it to something the serial
port would recognize.
My electronics and rs232 knowledge is lacking. Would this be fairly easy
for an average joe to do?
Post by Scott Newell
Finally, the units don't output NMEA sentences out
of the box, but apparently can be modified to do so by a firmware update.
It also appears to be a bare board and patch antenna, so some kind of
enclosure would be a good idea too.
I can build an enclosure for it
Post by Scott Newell
So yeah, you probably can. But it's not quite plug and play.
This would be really cool to put on my cheapo boat. I have an old GRiD
laptop that might could work with this..

Anyways, thanks for any advice/tips/pointing me to a website if possible

Mark
Post by Scott Newell
newell
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 06:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Price
Replying off-list....
No you didn't. ;)
Post by Mark Price
Post by Scott Newell
You'll need a source of regulated 5V dc power--steal from a keyboard or
mouse connector, maybe a USB port?
Hmm that shouldn't be too much of a problem
USB will be a little more involved...Only 500mA is available and
there's some negotiation involved before you can draw even that much.
Post by Mark Price
Post by Scott Newell
The serial output isn't RS-232, so
you'd need a level converter chip to convert it to something the serial
port would recognize.
My electronics and rs232 knowledge is lacking. Would this be fairly easy
for an average joe to do?
Fairly...Either Scott or I (or probably a few other poeple here) can
scribble out a schematic for you and tell you where to get the parts.
There's not much to it.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Bill Bradford
2002-07-05 02:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Newell
<http://www.bgmicro.com/lmad.htm>http://www.bgmicro.com/lmad.htm
$25 gps receivers with 1Hz output, might be good timing references for ntpd.
They appear to be a few years old.
Looks like NTP supports them, once you've got the RS232 interface built:

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/NTP/Version4/driver8.htm

mmmm.

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 06:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Newell
<http://www.bgmicro.com/lmad.htm>http://www.bgmicro.com/lmad.htm
$25 gps receivers with 1Hz output, might be good timing references for ntpd.
They appear to be a few years old.
I have located what may be the ultimate GPS time/freq source for us
geeks. It's much more expensive than that (like $300+), but still a
song compared to what they ran when they were new. I will type up
some info and send a pointer around over the next couple of days.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Scott Newell
2002-07-05 12:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
I have located what may be the ultimate GPS time/freq source for us
geeks. It's much more expensive than that (like $300+), but still a
Would it be the HP (Z3816A?) unit pictured at:

http://www.wgele.com/Picture/gps.htm

There have been a few on ebay lately...


newell
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 18:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Newell
Post by Dave McGuire
I have located what may be the ultimate GPS time/freq source for us
geeks. It's much more expensive than that (like $300+), but still a
http://www.wgele.com/Picture/gps.htm
There have been a few on ebay lately...
Close...the Z3801A. HiTech Cafe has about 1500 of them at $299. (!).
They need an antenna with a preamp, and 48VDC. These are REALLY
REALLY NICE units, and a tremendous amount of bang for the buck as
either a time or frequency standard (or both). They have a 10MHz
output for those lonely "ext std in" BNCs on the back of all of our HP
test equipment.

See http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm for lots of
very good information about this unit, and PDFs of docs.

They seem to have SprintPCS property stickers on them. I guess the
suits at Sprint have found something else to stabilize the oscillators
at the towers.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Bill Bradford
2002-07-05 19:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Close...the Z3801A. HiTech Cafe has about 1500 of them at $299. (!).
They need an antenna with a preamp, and 48VDC. These are REALLY
REALLY NICE units, and a tremendous amount of bang for the buck as
either a time or frequency standard (or both). They have a 10MHz
output for those lonely "ext std in" BNCs on the back of all of our HP
test equipment.
See http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm for lots of
very good information about this unit, and PDFs of docs.
They seem to have SprintPCS property stickers on them. I guess the
suits at Sprint have found something else to stabilize the oscillators
at the towers.
UNGABUNGA. Someone trade me one of these and $300 for this other
A5000 I have here... 8-)

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 19:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Post by Dave McGuire
Close...the Z3801A. HiTech Cafe has about 1500 of them at $299. (!).
They need an antenna with a preamp, and 48VDC. These are REALLY
REALLY NICE units, and a tremendous amount of bang for the buck as
either a time or frequency standard (or both). They have a 10MHz
output for those lonely "ext std in" BNCs on the back of all of our HP
test equipment.
See http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm for lots of
very good information about this unit, and PDFs of docs.
They seem to have SprintPCS property stickers on them. I guess the
suits at Sprint have found something else to stabilize the oscillators
at the towers.
UNGABUNGA. Someone trade me one of these and $300 for this other
A5000 I have here... 8-)
It's worth more than the A5000 you have there, Bill. ;) This is an
unbelievable price for an HP SmartClock box. The list is over $5K,
and they're worth every penny.

Oh yes...they need a little conversion to speak RS-232. There's
support for it on the board but it needs a little soldering. This is
what I meant by "I'll type up some info in a couple of days" but Scott
pressed the issue. ;) I was trying to figure out some way to get a
bunch of them and do the required mods here for people, but I'm not
sure how that'd work. Installing a 120V power supply is trivial
except for cutting the chassis to accommodate an IEC
connector...except for doing that part, I'm willing to do that
hardware mod (and the RS232 part) for people if anyone's interested.
I just don't want it to cost me anything, 'cause my wallet is
experiencing that thinness that only an employee of an unfunded
startup company can understand. ;)

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Scott Newell
2002-07-05 19:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Close...the Z3801A. HiTech Cafe has about 1500 of them at $299. (!).
No way! What an odd place for 'em to end up. Now if they'd knock it down
to $100...
Post by Dave McGuire
See http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm for lots of
Ahh, yes, been there before. The active GPS antenna pointer is interesting
too. (I didn't realize that there were cheap antennas when I saw these
units months ago.)
Post by Dave McGuire
They seem to have SprintPCS property stickers on them. I guess the
suits at Sprint have found something else to stabilize the oscillators
at the towers.
I'll ask and see what they're going to. Probably just something newer.


newell
Steven Hill
2002-07-05 19:53:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
I just don't want it to cost me anything, 'cause my wallet is
experiencing that thinness that only an employee of an unfunded
startup company can understand. ;)
-Dave
Unpaid leave, or work on half pay with the promise of stock options?

I feel your pain.

S.
--
Steven Hill
Systems Administrator

www.matrixnetsystems.com
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 19:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Hill
Post by Dave McGuire
I just don't want it to cost me anything, 'cause my wallet is
experiencing that thinness that only an employee of an unfunded
startup company can understand. ;)
Unpaid leave, or work on half pay with the promise of stock options?
I feel your pain.
The latter...except it's more like 1/3 pay. $3K/mo is about twenty
bucks more than my bills. :-(

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Amy
2002-07-05 20:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
It's worth more than the A5000 you have there, Bill. ;) This is an
unbelievable price for an HP SmartClock box. The list is over $5K,
and they're worth every penny.
Lord, *please* don't encourage him ;)

--a
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 20:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy
Post by Dave McGuire
It's worth more than the A5000 you have there, Bill. ;) This is an
unbelievable price for an HP SmartClock box. The list is over $5K,
and they're worth every penny.
Lord, *please* don't encourage him ;)
Huh?

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Amy
2002-07-05 20:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
The latter...except it's more like 1/3 pay. $3K/mo is about twenty
bucks more than my bills. :-(
That might as well be slave wages, Dave :/ Now I'm worried.

--a
Joshua D Boyd
2002-07-05 21:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy
Post by Dave McGuire
The latter...except it's more like 1/3 pay. $3K/mo is about twenty
bucks more than my bills. :-(
That might as well be slave wages, Dave :/ Now I'm worried.
Isn't he the principle owner?

I make significantly less. I don't know what the chances of making
more would be when I graduate (I know a few smart people locally who
haven't been able to get jobs, and they are qualified sysadmins in
addition to being good at programming, while I've no experience as an
admin. I know more less smart people without jobs, but they don't
count here), at least right away.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 21:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Amy
That might as well be slave wages, Dave :/ Now I'm worried.
Isn't he the principle owner?
What? Hell no. I don't do that kind of work...I'm a technical guy.
Tech stuff is *all* I do. If I do something else, it's likely that
I'm wasting my time...or worse yet, someone else's.

Besides, if I were, I'd be making even less. The LAST person to make
money in an entreprenurial situation is the owner.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
I make significantly less.
You're in school, man.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
I don't know what the chances of making
more would be when I graduate (I know a few smart people locally who
haven't been able to get jobs, and they are qualified sysadmins in
addition to being good at programming, while I've no experience as an
admin. I know more less smart people without jobs, but they don't
count here), at least right away.
The whole industry has tanked as far as the job market goes. This
shouldn't be news. I've got friends losing houses and cars left &
right. Just gotta find something to keep you going so we can all
weather this storm.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Patrick Giagnocavo +1.717.201.3366
2002-07-05 22:02:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Besides, if I were, I'd be making even less. The LAST person to make
money in an entreprenurial situation is the owner.
I would prefer not to have heard that :-(
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
I don't know what the chances of making
more would be when I graduate (I know a few smart people locally who
haven't been able to get jobs, and they are qualified sysadmins in
addition to being good at programming, while I've no experience as an
admin. I know more less smart people without jobs, but they don't
count here), at least right away.
The whole industry has tanked as far as the job market goes. This
shouldn't be news. I've got friends losing houses and cars left &
right. Just gotta find something to keep you going so we can all
weather this storm.
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 22:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Giagnocavo +1.717.201.3366
Post by Dave McGuire
Besides, if I were, I'd be making even less. The LAST person to make
money in an entreprenurial situation is the owner.
I would prefer not to have heard that :-(
Sorry man. :-(
Joshua D Boyd
2002-07-05 23:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Amy
That might as well be slave wages, Dave :/ Now I'm worried.
Isn't he the principle owner?
What? Hell no. I don't do that kind of work...I'm a technical guy.
Tech stuff is *all* I do. If I do something else, it's likely that
I'm wasting my time...or worse yet, someone else's.
It is entirely possible to be a principle owner and still be the
technical guy. Look at ID Software. The managers there answer to one
programmer and two artists. I suppose that even MS is this way now
that Bill Gates is just a visioneer instead of a manager (though he
still is on the board).
Post by Dave McGuire
Besides, if I were, I'd be making even less. The LAST person to make
money in an entreprenurial situation is the owner.
Well, true. I figured that the $3k a month might have been what you
had budgeted to live on until you took off.

How did it work out that you and other employees work in your house
with you being a principle owner? It would take more than just stock
options to make me do that.
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
I make significantly less.
You're in school, man.
And yet, per hour I make significanly more than the majority of my
not-in-school friends (which is to say the vast majority of my
friends). And per month I also make more (except for the 8 months out
of the year that I spend working only part time) than most of these
said friends. So many smart people making less than $3k per month is
obviously not that unusual, at least around here.
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
I don't know what the chances of making
more would be when I graduate (I know a few smart people locally who
haven't been able to get jobs, and they are qualified sysadmins in
addition to being good at programming, while I've no experience as an
admin. I know more less smart people without jobs, but they don't
count here), at least right away.
The whole industry has tanked as far as the job market goes. This
shouldn't be news. I've got friends losing houses and cars left &
right. Just gotta find something to keep you going so we can all
weather this storm.
Well, unfortunately, according the agreement, my current something
will be running out in 6 months. And even if I did go to grad school,
there would be over 9 months after graduation till that started.

$GF's father seemed rather worried over my lack of definate plans for
after graduation the last I talked to him. But I don't expect his
worrying to cause any problems.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 23:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Dave McGuire
What? Hell no. I don't do that kind of work...I'm a technical guy.
Tech stuff is *all* I do. If I do something else, it's likely that
I'm wasting my time...or worse yet, someone else's.
It is entirely possible to be a principle owner and still be the
technical guy. Look at ID Software. The managers there answer to one
programmer and two artists. I suppose that even MS is this way now
that Bill Gates is just a visioneer instead of a manager (though he
still is on the board).
It's definitely the exception rather than the rule.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Dave McGuire
Besides, if I were, I'd be making even less. The LAST person to make
money in an entreprenurial situation is the owner.
Well, true. I figured that the $3k a month might have been what you
had budgeted to live on until you took off.
Heh. Fuck no. Do you think I'd WILLINGLY put myself in a situation
where I'm having to keep a list of excuses sitting by the phone for
when the collection agents call? The boss-dude went to extreme
lengths to get me the money he's paying me now; I am quite sure it's
the best he can do...so I'm doing my best to make do.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
How did it work out that you and other employees work in your house
with you being a principle owner? It would take more than just stock
options to make me do that.
Well "other employees" was Sridhar...he was crashing on my couch
long before he got involved in this project. As for me, I PREFER to
work in my house. I have better equipment, better facilities, and a
better work environment here than (frankly) all but the very
best-funded companies could offer me. And I can work in my underwear,
on MY schedule.

There was the time that another tech guy spent about two weeks here
before a big trade show back in March. I put him up in my spare room
as a favor to the boss. It also facilitated our working together
quite nicely, and now the boss knows I'm willing to bust my ass for
company concerns. When the money (if any) comes, he'll either take
good care of me for that or he won't...I know him well enough to give
him the benefit of the doubt on that. Besides, it's no skin off my
nose, I had a spare room anyway and it was cool to hang out with
another geek.

To sum things up...If this company takes off and builds some huge
palatial glass building somewhere, I will STILL work in my house.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
And yet, per hour I make significanly more than the majority of my
not-in-school friends (which is to say the vast majority of my
friends). And per month I also make more (except for the 8 months out
of the year that I spend working only part time) than most of these
said friends. So many smart people making less than $3k per month is
obviously not that unusual, at least around here.
Not sure what to tell you about that. This is less than one third of
my last regular salary. The worst mistake I made was having gotten
very much used to it. I don't come from a well-monied family, so I
was quite eager to make those lifestyle changes.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Well, unfortunately, according the agreement, my current something
will be running out in 6 months. And even if I did go to grad school,
there would be over 9 months after graduation till that started.
PLEASE don't go to grad school. We want you out here with us.
I'm sure everyone here will help you beat the bushes when it's time to
find new work.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
$GF's father seemed rather worried over my lack of definate plans for
after graduation the last I talked to him. But I don't expect his
worrying to cause any problems.
Ahh, overprotective and judgemental parents. What fun. ;)

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Joshua D Boyd
2002-07-06 00:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
It is entirely possible to be a principle owner and still be the
technical guy. Look at ID Software. The managers there answer to one
It's definitely the exception rather than the rule.
That is true. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be encouraged.
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Well, true. I figured that the $3k a month might have been what you
had budgeted to live on until you took off.
Heh. Fuck no. Do you think I'd WILLINGLY put myself in a situation
where I'm having to keep a list of excuses sitting by the phone for
when the collection agents call? The boss-dude went to extreme
You never know. Many people want it badly enough to do just that.
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
How did it work out that you and other employees work in your house
with you being a principle owner? It would take more than just stock
options to make me do that.
Well "other employees" was Sridhar...he was crashing on my couch
long before he got involved in this project. As for me, I PREFER to
work in my house. I have better equipment, better facilities, and a
better work environment here than (frankly) all but the very
best-funded companies could offer me. And I can work in my underwear,
on MY schedule.
Well, I'm not much of one for lounging and/or working in underwear (as
more than one person will attest, I usually show up most places
wearing a shirt with buttons and slacks or kahki jeans), but I
certainly can understand the appeal of working at home. Sadly, my
home is better equipped than any place I've worked other than Pfizer
(and even that counts if like me you consider linux and macos to be
superior to win95). I say sadly because the stuff in my home cost so
little you would think any company would want to out do it for worker
productivity.

And if Sridhar was already there, I guess there wouldn't be any real
reason to stop him.

Might want to make sure he doesn't miss anymore rounds of sun
pickings, BTW.
Post by Dave McGuire
Not sure what to tell you about that. This is less than one third of
my last regular salary. The worst mistake I made was having gotten
very much used to it. I don't come from a well-monied family, so I
was quite eager to make those lifestyle changes.
I need to save more than I do. My theory is that a minimum one should
keep twenty grand in the bank, but I've never been able to make it to
that point. One needs to make more than they spend to get there (and
I don't really make much more than I need).

But, I'm used to not having to pack lunchs. I don't like packing
lunchs. I like having real food for lunch. But it would save me a
lot of money. Drinking less MD would also save me a lot.
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
$GF's father seemed rather worried over my lack of definate plans for
after graduation the last I talked to him. But I don't expect his
worrying to cause any problems.
Ahh, overprotective and judgemental parents. What fun. ;)
They just happen to come from a background where they want to see
their daughter well cared for. I can understand that. I've seen
enough men who have their wifes working full time AND raising the
family so that they can chase a new startup that never makes any
money. That is pretty miserable for the wifes, having to do all
that. That will not be me. As long as there aren't any kids, I
don't see anything wrong with one supporting the other through a
profitless startup.

But, from a parents point of view, if the man isn't established when
he marries your daughter, how do you know he will be by the time kids
come along? If I were them, I'd probably be a bit worried also. It's
not like they really know me all that well. And I do tend to wear
worn out cloths and drive a worn out car.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
Patrick Giagnocavo +1.717.201.3366
2002-07-06 00:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Dave McGuire
Ahh, overprotective and judgemental parents. What fun. ;)
They just happen to come from a background where they want to see
their daughter well cared for. I can understand that. I've seen
Yes, it is understandable. Here's a question though: did Daddy always
pay for everything she wanted, or did he set limits even if they had
the cash? Expect h*ll to ensue the first time you have to say "I
can't afford that right now..." for something she wants if the former.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
enough men who have their wifes working full time AND raising the
family so that they can chase a new startup that never makes any
money. That is pretty miserable for the wifes, having to do all
Quite frankly, it's not fair to the woman. Yes I am a male chauvinist
pig. When kids come, the woman needs to have enough free time to be a
full time mother.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
But, from a parents point of view, if the man isn't established when
he marries your daughter, how do you know he will be by the time kids
come along? If I were them, I'd probably be a bit worried also. It's
not like they really know me all that well. And I do tend to wear
worn out cloths and drive a worn out car.
Get away from giving the impression of "cheap" to one of being
"thrifty" and Pops will probably come around.

Mention that you have a few bucks stashed in an IRA or 401k (even if
it is just $200 he doesn't need to know that) and he will feel better.

As long as he knows you are hard working he'll bite his tongue.
You've somehow demonstrated to him that you are hard-working, right?

/me realizes what an arrogant windbag I am being...

./patrick
Joshua D Boyd
2002-07-06 00:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Giagnocavo +1.717.201.3366
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Dave McGuire
Ahh, overprotective and judgemental parents. What fun. ;)
They just happen to come from a background where they want to see
their daughter well cared for. I can understand that. I've seen
Yes, it is understandable. Here's a question though: did Daddy always
pay for everything she wanted, or did he set limits even if they had
the cash? Expect h*ll to ensue the first time you have to say "I
can't afford that right now..." for something she wants if the former.
No, in this case her father didn't pay for everything she wanted. She
even paid her own way through college by working at least one pretty
nasty job (foundry type place, 12 hour swing shifts).
Post by Patrick Giagnocavo +1.717.201.3366
Quite frankly, it's not fair to the woman. Yes I am a male chauvinist
pig. When kids come, the woman needs to have enough free time to be a
full time mother.
That my general idea. I'd be willing to allow that for some families
full time father could also work instead, but that isn't our plan.
Post by Patrick Giagnocavo +1.717.201.3366
Get away from giving the impression of "cheap" to one of being
"thrifty" and Pops will probably come around.
I'm not sure exactly how to express one versus the other. The few
presents I've given Deb have not been cheap ones by any means...
Post by Patrick Giagnocavo +1.717.201.3366
Mention that you have a few bucks stashed in an IRA or 401k (even if
it is just $200 he doesn't need to know that) and he will feel better.
Now there is a good reason to get an IRA or 401k. I do have savings
bonds. That sounds like saving for the future, right? (sure, I only
have them because my grandmother gave them to be, but still).
Post by Patrick Giagnocavo +1.717.201.3366
As long as he knows you are hard working he'll bite his tongue.
You've somehow demonstrated to him that you are hard-working, right?
I'm not sure how well he would or would not have noticed that.
Unfortunately, when most people think lots of computers, they think
lots of $$$. But I don't think anyone has pointed out to him yet that
I have lots of computers.

I'm fairly sure his wife views me as hard working. At least, she
keeps telling me I'm working to hard and am going to kill myself.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 01:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Patrick Giagnocavo +1.717.201.3366
Get away from giving the impression of "cheap" to one of being
"thrifty" and Pops will probably come around.
I'm not sure exactly how to express one versus the other. The few
presents I've given Deb have not been cheap ones by any means...
Rule #1: NEVER EVER spend more than three seconds figuring out how
much to kick in when the check comes at a restaurant. If I'm out to
dinner with friends and "calculation" occurs, I make it a very big
point to NEVER dine with that person(s) again. Ever.

That isn't thrifty...that's just plain CHEAP. There's a concrete
difference for ya. Being any cheaper would result in peeling apart
rolls of two-ply toilet paper to get two rolls for the price of one.

One guy (one with a $60K salary, no less) even GOT OUT A CALCULATOR
AND ADDED UP WHAT HE'D ORDERED, and put in exactly that amount...to
the penny. Beyond the initial cheapness, he assumed, I suppose, that
the rest of us were responsible for divvying up the tip!

Look at the number at the bottom of the check. Divide it roughly by
the number of people at the table. Add a few bucks. That is all.
(unless of course there are special circumstances, like you only had
an appetizer or you were the only one at the table not ordering three
or four $5 drinks)
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Now there is a good reason to get an IRA or 401k. I do have savings
bonds. That sounds like saving for the future, right? (sure, I only
have them because my grandmother gave them to be, but still).
If your grandmother didn't think you were worth it, she probably
wouldn't have given them to you.

BTW...with big companies going tits-up left & right, and "cooking the
books" all over the place, the best place to keep your fortune is
probably your sock drawer. I know *I* don't trust those fuckers.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 01:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
It is entirely possible to be a principle owner and still be the
technical guy. Look at ID Software. The managers there answer to one
It's definitely the exception rather than the rule.
That is true. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be encouraged.
Oh absolutely, I agree 100%. I just wish it were more common than
it actually is. Problem is, technical work tends to be very
logical...while many things that go on in the "business world" are
rather illogical.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
But, I'm used to not having to pack lunchs. I don't like packing
lunchs. I like having real food for lunch. But it would save me a
I'm with you there. I like a good sandwich once in a while...but a
nice three-margarita lunch at Don Pablo's is much, much nicer. :)
Post by Joshua D Boyd
lot of money. Drinking less MD would also save me a lot.
*snort* :-)
Post by Joshua D Boyd
They just happen to come from a background where they want to see
their daughter well cared for. I can understand that. I've seen
enough men who have their wifes working full time AND raising the
family so that they can chase a new startup that never makes any
money. That is pretty miserable for the wifes, having to do all
that. That will not be me. As long as there aren't any kids, I
don't see anything wrong with one supporting the other through a
profitless startup.
I see what you mean.
Post by Joshua D Boyd
But, from a parents point of view, if the man isn't established when
he marries your daughter, how do you know he will be by the time kids
Not getting mired in college as a "terminal student" will go a long
way toward being "established". ;)
Post by Joshua D Boyd
come along? If I were them, I'd probably be a bit worried also. It's
not like they really know me all that well. And I do tend to wear
worn out cloths and drive a worn out car.
I dunno, man...I've found you to be classier than most. If this guy
has any sense he'll think you're just fine.

And no, I'm NOT flirting with you, freakboy. ;)

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Joshua D Boyd
2002-07-06 01:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
come along? If I were them, I'd probably be a bit worried also. It's
not like they really know me all that well. And I do tend to wear
worn out cloths and drive a worn out car.
I dunno, man...I've found you to be classier than most. If this guy
has any sense he'll think you're just fine.
And no, I'm NOT flirting with you, freakboy. ;)
I'd be more worried about a man who actually was looking closely
enough to notice the work collars, cuffs, and shoes.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 01:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Joshua D Boyd
come along? If I were them, I'd probably be a bit worried also. It's
not like they really know me all that well. And I do tend to wear
worn out cloths and drive a worn out car.
I dunno, man...I've found you to be classier than most. If this guy
has any sense he'll think you're just fine.
And no, I'm NOT flirting with you, freakboy. ;)
I'd be more worried about a man who actually was looking closely
enough to notice the work collars, cuffs, and shoes.
I did see the fishnets poking out from your sneakers...

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Joshua D Boyd
2002-07-06 03:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
I did see the fishnets poking out from your sneakers...
I do not know this man.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 21:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy
Post by Dave McGuire
The latter...except it's more like 1/3 pay. $3K/mo is about twenty
bucks more than my bills. :-(
That might as well be slave wages, Dave :/ Now I'm worried.
:-(

S'ok, at least the bills are getting paid now.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Amy
2002-07-05 20:37:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy
Post by Dave McGuire
It's worth more than the A5000 you have there, Bill. ;) This is an
unbelievable price for an HP SmartClock box. The list is over $5K,
and they're worth every penny.
Lord, *please* don't encourage him ;)
Huh?
He has enough stuff he never touches ;P Telling him that it's worth more
is sorta like waving a sale flag in a woman's face..one second he's
there..the next he's reaching for the credit card...

--a
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 20:43:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy
Post by Amy
Post by Dave McGuire
It's worth more than the A5000 you have there, Bill. ;) This is an
unbelievable price for an HP SmartClock box. The list is over $5K,
and they're worth every penny.
Lord, *please* don't encourage him ;)
Huh?
He has enough stuff he never touches ;P Telling him that it's worth more
is sorta like waving a sale flag in a woman's face..one second he's
there..the next he's reaching for the credit card...
Uhh
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Bill Bradford
2002-07-05 20:48:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy
He has enough stuff he never touches ;P Telling him that it's worth more
is sorta like waving a sale flag in a woman's face..one second he's
there..the next he's reaching for the credit card...
I already ordered one of the $27 GPS modules, thats enough for this
payday. 8-)

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 21:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
I already ordered one of the $27 GPS modules, thats enough for this
payday. 8-)
Cool, I'm anxious to hear about it when you get it!

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Eric Dittman
2002-07-05 20:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Post by Amy
He has enough stuff he never touches ;P Telling him that it's worth more
is sorta like waving a sale flag in a woman's face..one second he's
there..the next he's reaching for the credit card...
I already ordered one of the $27 GPS modules, thats enough for this
payday. 8-)
I messed up and deleted the messages on the cheap GPS modules.
What store is having the sale?
--
Eric Dittman
***@dittman.net
Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/
Larry Snyder
2002-07-05 21:09:07 UTC
Permalink
bgmicro. But I couldn't find them on the site today :(
Post by Eric Dittman
I messed up and deleted the messages on the cheap GPS modules.
What store is having the sale?
Bill Bradford
2002-07-05 21:22:37 UTC
Permalink
Just called them to check. "We sold out after processing all
the orders this morning that came in yesterday".

Whee, looks like I'll get mine, then.

Bill
Post by Larry Snyder
bgmicro. But I couldn't find them on the site today :(
Post by Eric Dittman
I messed up and deleted the messages on the cheap GPS modules.
What store is having the sale?
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Scott Newell
2002-07-05 21:43:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Snyder
/.'ed by the rescue list. I see a commission opportunity for Bill.
Actually, I did see the BG Micro deal mentioned on /.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/07/04/224236&mode=thread&tid=99


newell
Scott Newell
2002-07-05 21:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Just called them to check. "We sold out after processing all
the orders this morning that came in yesterday".
Whee, looks like I'll get mine, then.
I placed my order at about 8 PM, but the charges haven't appeared on my
credit card yet...hope I got my order in in time!


newell
Larry Snyder
2002-07-05 21:30:28 UTC
Permalink
/.'ed by the rescue list. I see a commission opportunity for Bill.
-ls-
Post by Bill Bradford
Just called them to check. "We sold out after processing all
the orders this morning that came in yesterday".
Jonathan C. Patschke
2002-07-05 22:26:42 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, it was written:
Bill Bradford
2002-07-05 22:39:19 UTC
Permalink
I'm just trying to find a $20-$25/hr[1] job babysitting Unix and/or
ciscoSystem boxen in the Houston area, and failing. The only thing I'm
asking out of the ordinary is that the employer let me work a schedule
that will let me attend school, with the condition that I'll gladly wear a
pager/cell-phone, and I'll never be more than 5 minutes away from an ssh
station.
<snip>
One thing that hurts me is that I only have six years experience in
industry. I've only been the "top dog" of the network for three of those,
and I don't have a degree yet. The three years prior to that, I did
support and HTML crap.
Thats the problem. I've only got six years industry experience as well,
but employers want you to work around THEIR schedule, not the other way
around.

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Kurt Huhn
2002-07-06 02:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Dammit, but someone needs to write a HOWTO on job-hunting. I suck at this
so unbelievably badly. Yes, this is a request for hints.
Don't be afraid to relocate. I've done it three times in the last five years.

Resume spamming doesn't work - BTDTGTTS.
--
Kurt "What me look like, ricecake monster?
***@k-huhn.com Me Cookie Monster! Me need COOKIE!" --Cookie Monster
Jonathan C. Patschke
2002-07-05 22:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Thats the problem. I've only got six years industry experience as well,
but employers want you to work around THEIR schedule, not the other way
around.
(note: not a gripe at you, but a gripe at the stupidity of the mentality
of the typical people "in charge")

Wearing a pager all day and preparing to drop everything at a moment's
notice isn't working around their schedule? I fail to see how my ass
warming a chair in an office waiting for stuff to break is any different
than my attending classes--furthering my career--waiting for stuff to
break, except that attending classes makes me a more valuable employee.

Either way, I'm invariably going to be working hours outside of normal
business hours. That's just how life is--shit rarely breaks during 9-17,
at least, in my experience. It breaks either:

1) Just after I've gotten home and finished making dinner.
2) In the middle of the night before an exam. (Yes, I -had- driven from
Houston to Elgin to fix stuff at 3am prior to an exam the following
afternoon).
3) While everyone's on vacation due to scheduled holiday.

So, what the hell is wrong with working late hours to begin with (meaning
that I can do my job -during- my scheduled hours; amazing idea, that), and
wearing a pager during part of "normal" hours. It seems to me like the
company would stand to save quite a bit in overtime pay--at the mere
expense of *OMG!* doing something -unusual-!

But then, I'm not a manager, so I don't understand how things like that
work. I just know that, regardless of what my "normal" working hours are,
I'm going to be at work well past dark on some days, and this whole
situation just makes me want to go on a violent rampage.

And, on an entirely unrelated topic, an employer may be forced to work
around my schedule, anyway, thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act
(bipolar disorder is classified as a disability, with adjusted work hours
being listed as an acceptable accommodation), but I don't want to play
that card because I'm not a whiny little prick.

--Jonathan
Dave McGuire
2002-07-05 23:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan C. Patschke
Wearing a pager all day and preparing to drop everything at a moment's
notice isn't working around their schedule? I fail to see how my ass
warming a chair in an office waiting for stuff to break is any different
than my attending classes--furthering my career--waiting for stuff to
break, except that attending classes makes me a more valuable employee.
Dude...One of the hallmark attitudes of suitdom is to confuse
"working" with "being at work". Suits love power trips...they love to
stroll through a cube farm looking at all the busy little people over
whom they have complete control. It makes them feel big, because they
can't feel big in any other way. It's What They Do.
Post by Jonathan C. Patschke
And, on an entirely unrelated topic, an employer may be forced to work
around my schedule, anyway, thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act
(bipolar disorder is classified as a disability, with adjusted work hours
being listed as an acceptable accommodation), but I don't want to play
that card because I'm not a whiny little prick.
Having a willingness to try to live around a disability like that is a
very big thing. Congrats, man. I hope you can stick with it.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Bill Bradford
2002-07-05 23:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan C. Patschke
And, on an entirely unrelated topic, an employer may be forced to work
around my schedule, anyway, thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act
(bipolar disorder is classified as a disability, with adjusted work hours
being listed as an acceptable accommodation), but I don't want to play
that card because I'm not a whiny little prick.
My boss was VERY careful to let me know that I could adjust my
schedule as neneded (e.g., work 10-7, Tue-Sat, whatever) when I
got diagnosed with sleep apnea. I'm assuming they didnt want to
possibly step into that ADA minefield.

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Mark Price
2002-07-05 23:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Dammit, but someone needs to write a HOWTO on job-hunting. I suck at this
so unbelievably badly. Yes, this is a request for hints.
http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/

Mark
Larry Snyder
2002-07-06 00:18:40 UTC
Permalink
I assume you didn't toss that at them when you first walked in the door.
Hiring managers may not have a problem with unconventional arrangements,
but HR departments _live_ to avoid them happening in the first place.
Once you're in and have proved your worth, it can (but not always)
become a manager's discretion kind of thing.
-ls-
Post by Bill Bradford
My boss was VERY careful to let me know that I could adjust my
schedule as neneded (e.g., work 10-7, Tue-Sat, whatever) when I
got diagnosed with sleep apnea. I'm assuming they didnt want to
possibly step into that ADA minefield.
Bill
Bill Bradford
2002-07-06 02:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Snyder
I assume you didn't toss that at them when you first walked in the door.
No. I wasnt diagnosed with OSA until *after* I started working there. I
thought I was just tired - until one day the department VP woke me up because
I'd fallen asleep on my keyboard and my forehead was holding down the space
bar.. They were concerned and asked me to get checked out, because NOBODY
should be THAT exahusted (Dave McG can sympathize with me on this).
Post by Larry Snyder
Once you're in and have proved your worth, it can (but not always)
become a manager's discretion kind of thing.
Exactly, thats what this was. They didnt want to lose me.

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Kris Kirby
2002-07-06 13:11:12 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, it was written:
Kris Kirby
2002-07-06 13:13:49 UTC
Permalink
I'm just trying to find a $20-$25/hr[1] job babysitting Unix and/or
ciscoSystem boxen in the Houston area, and failing. The only thing I'm
asking out of the ordinary is that the employer let me work a schedule
that will let me attend school, with the condition that I'll gladly wear a
pager/cell-phone, and I'll never be more than 5 minutes away from an ssh
station. It's an unusual request, but I don't see how it could be
construed as undoable--most of the heavy-duty (ie: shit's about to break,
or already did break) system administration has to happen outside of
normal business hours anyway.
I'm having trouble finding a job that doesn't want me to have an MCSE. Or
a $55k/yr position swapping tapes that requires a CS-B.S./M.S. (Or Bs.C.)

Degreed I am not, but it's fscking rediculous sometimes.

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
<***@nospam.catonic.net> | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."
Kris Kirby
2002-07-06 13:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Well up in DC it all seems to be "security clearance required" and
"piss in this cup" and they STILL won't pay decent wages. For me,
that eliminated about 90% of the available positions right there.
I've got #1 right there, right now.
And no, I'd have no problem passing a piss test. I just object to
it on moral grounds.
Unfortunately, I have no choice in the matter... I must eat and pay off
bills.

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
<***@nospam.catonic.net> | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 17:05:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Kirby
Unfortunately, I have no choice in the matter... I must eat and pay off
bills.
I have the same concern. But there are some lines I will not
cross. I've already done the DoD dance, back in the SDI days. I'm
through with building machines to more effectively kill people. I'll
lose my car and move [back] to a bullets-flying-overhead neighborhood
before I do that again.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Kris Kirby
2002-07-06 13:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan C. Patschke
And, on an entirely unrelated topic, an employer may be forced to work
around my schedule, anyway, thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act
(bipolar disorder is classified as a disability, with adjusted work hours
being listed as an acceptable accommodation), but I don't want to play
that card because I'm not a whiny little prick.
One Question: Is ADD a disability?

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
<***@nospam.catonic.net> | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 17:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Kirby
Post by Jonathan C. Patschke
And, on an entirely unrelated topic, an employer may be forced to work
around my schedule, anyway, thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act
(bipolar disorder is classified as a disability, with adjusted work hours
being listed as an acceptable accommodation), but I don't want to play
that card because I'm not a whiny little prick.
One Question: Is ADD a disability?
It can become one if I'm around.

One prime symptom of ADD is the constant diagnosing all of your
friends as having ADD. It was interesting the first fifteen or twenty
times it happened, but eventually I had to resort to threats of
physical violence to make it stop.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Bill Bradford
2002-07-06 18:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
One prime symptom of ADD is the constant diagnosing all of your
friends as having ADD. It was interesting the first fifteen or twenty
times it happened, but eventually I had to resort to threats of
physical violence to make it stop.
ADD. *spit*. Its a new term (and a "diagnosis", an excuse for doctors to
put kids (and people) on medicine they dont need) for an old condition -

its called BEING HYPER. "overactive".

Someone told me once they thought I had ADD. No, I just multitask well.

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Joshua D Boyd
2002-07-06 18:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Post by Dave McGuire
One prime symptom of ADD is the constant diagnosing all of your
friends as having ADD. It was interesting the first fifteen or twenty
times it happened, but eventually I had to resort to threats of
physical violence to make it stop.
ADD. *spit*. Its a new term (and a "diagnosis", an excuse for doctors to
put kids (and people) on medicine they dont need) for an old condition -
Stupidity? At least that is what they used to call a lot of people
who were later diagnosed with ADD.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
George Adkins
2002-07-07 00:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua D Boyd
Post by Bill Bradford
ADD. *spit*. Its a new term (and a "diagnosis", an excuse for doctors to
put kids (and people) on medicine they dont need) for an old condition -
Stupidity? At least that is what they used to call a lot of people
who were later diagnosed with ADD.
ADD, that's what 'they' (as in the conspiratorial they) call it when 'they'
can't understand that I figured it out when I heard it the *first* time.
That I read it or heard it and it made sense to me then. And that somehow
(unlike them) I don't have to write it out and show all the work to get the
answer right, That I *can* do it in my head, whether they think it's
possible or not. That I'm reading Heinlein during the lecture because I read
the chapter in ten minutes on my way to class that morning, and I _don't_
have any questions about how to do it.

It's a descriminatory term of derision, promulgated by Idiots who
condecendingly think that because I'm not shaken to the quick by their
picayune issues, or that because I'm underwhelmed by their struggling
pointless repetition, I must somehow be 'Defective', a victim of some
'Disorder'.

Well, guess what... I did not suffer from a 'Learning Disability', I learned
just fine. It was 'they' who suffered from a 'Teaching Inabilty'.

MY GOD! Where might I be now, if the world hadn't tried to cram me into
their cookie-cutter mold of conformity and bored me to dispair and
mis-behavior as a child.

George
Kurt Huhn
2002-07-07 01:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Adkins
MY GOD! Where might I be now, if the world hadn't tried to cram me into
their cookie-cutter mold of conformity and bored me to dispair and
mis-behavior as a child.
One of the reasons why I don't have a college degree...
--
Kurt "What me look like, ricecake monster?
***@k-huhn.com Me Cookie Monster! Me need COOKIE!" --Cookie Monster
Gary Nichols
2002-07-06 15:02:54 UTC
Permalink
Speaking from experience (as a hiring manager and an employee), you don't
WANT to work at a place that requires a degree for a tape-swapping
position. That reaks of PHB-isms's and an ignorant HR department.

I don't want to go off on a rant here, but...

<rant>
Example:
I do information security for my $primary-job, and when I hire people to
my team at $large-insurance-company, I look for mad security sk1llz.
No degree?
Ok.
No certification?
Ok.
But can you perform a pen test? yes?
ok -
can you write policies and procedures? yes?
ok -
past work experience?
ok.

At this point, I would talk to them about a number of topics probing for
their level of knowledge. If I get warm fuzzies, they are hired.

Requiring someone in $geek-line-of-work to be degreed is ludicrous.
What's next - Burger King required an associates to be a shift lead?

</rant>

The greatest employees I have ever had were degree-less with no or maybe
one certs - but lots of practical experience be it at $job or $home.

Don't give up.
Post by Kris Kirby
I'm having trouble finding a job that doesn't want me to have an MCSE. Or
a $55k/yr position swapping tapes that requires a CS-B.S./M.S. (Or Bs.C.)
Degreed I am not, but it's fscking rediculous sometimes.
James Sharp
2002-07-06 19:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Nichols
Speaking from experience (as a hiring manager and an employee), you don't
WANT to work at a place that requires a degree for a tape-swapping
position. That reaks of PHB-isms's and an ignorant HR department.
Most places just want degrees so that you can prove that you've had at
least 2-4 years practice in kissing ass and doing useless assignments.
Kris Kirby
2002-07-06 19:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Rule #1: NEVER EVER spend more than three seconds figuring out how
much to kick in when the check comes at a restaurant. If I'm out to
dinner with friends and "calculation" occurs, I make it a very big
point to NEVER dine with that person(s) again. Ever.
I spend a few seconds calculating what 15% of the total was and think if
the service was worth it. Among the best service we have ever had in a
resturant[0], was from a guy who looked to be in between jobs and about 40
- 45. He really stayed on top of everything and I didn't need to remind
him more than once after I ran out of soda or water (I drink very fast and
this throws people off).
Post by Dave McGuire
That isn't thrifty...that's just plain CHEAP. There's a concrete
difference for ya. Being any cheaper would result in peeling apart
rolls of two-ply toilet paper to get two rolls for the price of one.
One guy (one with a $60K salary, no less) even GOT OUT A CALCULATOR
AND ADDED UP WHAT HE'D ORDERED, and put in exactly that amount...to
the penny. Beyond the initial cheapness, he assumed, I suppose, that
the rest of us were responsible for divvying up the tip!
One thing that Suit School enforces is that in order to become a sucessful
suit, you must avoid reaching for your wallet at all times. And to be
cheap.
Post by Dave McGuire
BTW...with big companies going tits-up left & right, and "cooking the
books" all over the place, the best place to keep your fortune is
probably your sock drawer. I know *I* don't trust those fuckers.
Having just read `The Jungle' by Upton Sinclair, I see too many
similarities with current business and that of a century ago. Since we
actively ignore our history, we tend to move in the same slow circles...
Indeed, the only ones learning from history are our militaries.

[0]: Fuck it. I was out drinking last night, I feel like shit.

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
<***@nospam.catonic.net> | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 22:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Kirby
Post by Dave McGuire
One guy (one with a $60K salary, no less) even GOT OUT A CALCULATOR
AND ADDED UP WHAT HE'D ORDERED, and put in exactly that amount...to
the penny. Beyond the initial cheapness, he assumed, I suppose, that
the rest of us were responsible for divvying up the tip!
One thing that Suit School enforces is that in order to become a sucessful
suit, you must avoid reaching for your wallet at all times. And to be
cheap.
I agree. But not this time: This guy wasn't a suit. He was an
engineer (worked for Sun), and a damn good one.

Just unbelievably cheap.
Post by Kris Kirby
Having just read `The Jungle' by Upton Sinclair, I see too many
similarities with current business and that of a century ago. Since we
actively ignore our history, we tend to move in the same slow circles...
Indeed, the only ones learning from history are our militaries.
It's true! WHY do we do this??

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
James Sharp
2002-07-06 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Kirby
One thing that Suit School enforces is that in order to become a sucessful
suit, you must avoid reaching for your wallet at all times. And to be
cheap.
Avoid reaching for your wallet UNLESS you're going for the corporate AMEX
card to buy yourself a $700 Aeron chair.
Bill Bradford
2002-07-06 22:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Sharp
Avoid reaching for your wallet UNLESS you're going for the corporate AMEX
card to buy yourself a $700 Aeron chair.
Fuck Aeron chairs. My favorite is a Steelcase chair made in '81.

$35 at an office surplus store. Fuck that all-plastic crap nowdays.

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Shawn Wallbridge
2002-07-06 22:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Post by James Sharp
Avoid reaching for your wallet UNLESS you're going for the corporate AMEX
card to buy yourself a $700 Aeron chair.
Fuck Aeron chairs. My favorite is a Steelcase chair made in '81.
$35 at an office surplus store. Fuck that all-plastic crap nowdays.
Bill
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 23:24:09 UTC
Permalink
On July 6, Shawn Wallbridge wrote:
Chad Fernandez
2002-07-06 23:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Kurt Huhn
2002-07-07 00:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Okay, I turned the chair right side up, and am now sitting on the
correct side.
I don't know why, but I found this fucking hilarious. No shit, I'm still
laughing :-)
--
Kurt "What me look like, ricecake monster?
***@k-huhn.com Me Cookie Monster! Me need COOKIE!" --Cookie Monster
Dave McGuire
2002-07-07 01:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Huhn
Okay, I turned the chair right side up, and am now sitting on the
correct side.
I don't know why, but I found this fucking hilarious. No shit, I'm still
laughing :-)
Yeah, there was a strange image there.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Shawn Wallbridge
2002-07-07 00:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Dave McGuire
2002-07-07 00:35:37 UTC
Permalink
I would buy one tomorrow if I had the money. After all, my ass is in it
8-10 hours a day.
That's all? Heh. Slacker.
Well, it is in my chair at work for another 8-10hrs.
Ahh, ok. :)

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Kris Kirby
2002-07-06 20:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Nichols
The greatest employees I have ever had were degree-less with no or maybe
one certs - but lots of practical experience be it at $job or $home.
q: how do you document `home' experience? Fr'instance, I have six years
experience with FreeBSD, but can only document an employer where I used
that for eight months.

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
<***@nospam.catonic.net> | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."
Chris Hedemark
2002-07-06 20:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Kirby
q: how do you document `home' experience? Fr'instance, I have six years
experience with FreeBSD, but can only document an employer where I used
that for eight months.
Honesty is very important with a resume. But at the same time, if you
worked at a place for four years and barely touched Solaris yet your
were running 15 various rescued sparc boxen at home, I think it is
worthwhile putting down a bullet for the job saying that you had Solaris
experience. At least then when you get your technical grilling, you'll
know what you're talking about. That's what is most important. Do you
know your stuff? Too many people oversell themselves on resumes, but if
you undersell yourself you may not get an interview.

If you know the technology, fit it in there on paper somewhere.
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 20:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Kirby
Post by Gary Nichols
The greatest employees I have ever had were degree-less with no or maybe
one certs - but lots of practical experience be it at $job or $home.
q: how do you document `home' experience? Fr'instance, I have six years
experience with FreeBSD, but can only document an employer where I used
that for eight months.
Easy. Put it on your resume. What difference does it make whether
it's in your building or someone else's?

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Kurt Huhn
2002-07-06 20:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Kris Kirby
q: how do you document `home' experience? Fr'instance, I have six years
experience with FreeBSD, but can only document an employer where I used
that for eight months.
Easy. Put it on your resume. What difference does it make whether
it's in your building or someone else's?
Agreed. I have a "Skills" section on my resume, where I put bullet points of
what I know. If I know it, I know it, it doesn't matter where I learned it or
how I use it. I would expect the same from any potential empoloyees...
--
Kurt "What me look like, ricecake monster?
***@k-huhn.com Me Cookie Monster! Me need COOKIE!" --Cookie Monster
Bill Bradford
2002-07-06 22:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Kirby
q: how do you document `home' experience?
You dont, you list it under "hobbies".

Unfortunately.

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 23:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Post by Kris Kirby
q: how do you document `home' experience?
You dont, you list it under "hobbies".
Unfortunately.
Uh, no, I have to strongly disagree with you there, Bill. The fact
that something occurs within a home does not automatically make it a
hobby. I've done work for the fucking Pentagon in my home. THAT
certainly wasn't a hobby. And you'd better believe it's on my resume.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Bill Bradford
2002-07-07 00:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Uh, no, I have to strongly disagree with you there, Bill. The fact
that something occurs within a home does not automatically make it a
hobby. I've done work for the fucking Pentagon in my home. THAT
certainly wasn't a hobby. And you'd better believe it's on my resume.
Yes - but at least around here, "fucked around with $UNIX at home" [1] doesent
fly with HR people (the most clueless of the bunch), the ones you have to get
past to get to the interview where you can show that you know your shit while
talking to clueful folks [2].

Bill

[1] Too many "I can install linux! I is a sysadmin!" types around here. 8-(
[2] Interview for the job I have now. $NON_PHB: "How do you get past a
corrupted password file or lost password on a Solaris box?" Me: <laugh>
"You want the short version, or the long version?" [4]
[3] See [1]. This may be different in other parts of the country, but its
definitely how it is around here.
[4] sunhelp.org actually *did* help me get this job, beleive it or not. [5]
[5] and knowing IRIX and HP-UX helped me *keep* the job when they had layoffs
back in November. Thank god.
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Dave McGuire
2002-07-07 00:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Post by Dave McGuire
Uh, no, I have to strongly disagree with you there, Bill. The fact
that something occurs within a home does not automatically make it a
hobby. I've done work for the fucking Pentagon in my home. THAT
certainly wasn't a hobby. And you'd better believe it's on my resume.
Yes - but at least around here, "fucked around with $UNIX at home" [1] doesent
fly with HR people (the most clueless of the bunch), the ones you have to get
past to get to the interview where you can show that you know your shit while
talking to clueful folks [2].
Agreed. But talking to HR people is the first mistake. ;) Unusual
people have (and need) unusual methods.
Post by Bill Bradford
sunhelp.org actually *did* help me get this job, beleive it or not.
I rest my case. ;)

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Kris Kirby
2002-07-06 20:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Post by Kris Kirby
One Question: Is ADD a disability?
It can become one if I'm around.
One prime symptom of ADD is the constant diagnosing all of your
friends as having ADD. It was interesting the first fifteen or twenty
times it happened, but eventually I had to resort to threats of
physical violence to make it stop.
You're missing the point here -- to LART HR people.

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
<***@nospam.catonic.net> | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."
Kris Kirby
2002-07-06 20:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Sharp
Avoid reaching for your wallet UNLESS you're going for the corporate AMEX
card to buy yourself a $700 Aeron chair.
Dilbert put it best: "A bonus today -- is worth the company tomorrow."

--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
<***@nospam.catonic.net> | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."
Steven Hill
2002-07-06 23:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
I've done work for the fucking Pentagon in my home.
Are you allowed to tell us what?

S.
--
Steven Hill
Systems Administrator

www.matrixnetsystems.com
Dave McGuire
2002-07-06 23:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Hill
Are you allowed to tell us what?
Image processing software.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Bill Bradford
2002-07-07 00:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave McGuire
Image processing software.
*cough* monitor color calibration *cough*

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Dave McGuire
2002-07-07 00:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Post by Dave McGuire
Image processing software.
*cough* monitor color calibration *cough*
Yeah, that "spectral object classification via satellite imagery"
kind of monitor color calibration. ;)

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Bill Bradford
2002-07-07 00:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Hill
Post by Dave McGuire
I've done work for the fucking Pentagon in my home.
Are you allowed to tell us what?
"fucking Pentagon" ? I know it had rings, but a cock ring?

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Kurt Huhn
2002-07-07 01:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
"fucking Pentagon" ? I know it had rings, but a cock ring?
The upside down chair got me going - thispropelled me straight into
falling-off-the-chair-bellylaughing mode.

Oh it hurts, I'm so full too (just finished the ultimate summer-weekend dinner)
--
Kurt "What me look like, ricecake monster?
***@k-huhn.com Me Cookie Monster! Me need COOKIE!" --Cookie Monster
Dave McGuire
2002-07-07 01:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Huhn
Oh it hurts, I'm so full too (just finished the ultimate summer-weekend dinner)
Bastard, I'm hungry. What'd you have?

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Larry Snyder
2002-07-06 23:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Hmmm...Trimble claims the SVeeEight is a _direct_ replacement. The
manual for it says RS-232. Won't know fer sher til it (hopefully)
gets here. Also, check out:

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/driver29.htm

It's built to talk to a Trimble Palisade, but it's still TSIP. Again,
won't know til it gets here.

The Fine Manual (tm) for the 6 isn't on their site. If anyone comes up
with a pdf (including me), a copy should probably go to mrbill for
available archive purposes.
-ls-
Post by Bill Bradford
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/NTP/Version4/driver8.htm
mmmm.
Bill
Bill Bradford
2002-07-07 00:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Snyder
Hmmm...Trimble claims the SVeeEight is a _direct_ replacement. The
manual for it says RS-232. Won't know fer sher til it (hopefully)
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/driver29.htm
It's built to talk to a Trimble Palisade, but it's still TSIP. Again,
won't know til it gets here.
The Fine Manual (tm) for the 6 isn't on their site. If anyone comes up
with a pdf (including me), a copy should probably go to mrbill for
available archive purposes.
-ls-
I'll be scanning anything I get with mine to put online.

Knowing my time-for-projects around here, I may end up providing
schematics and parts and cash, and having someone else put together
the RS232 interface for me; I'm a klutz with a soldering iron.

BTW, anybody want a celereon 300 (maybe its a 366; I'm too lazy to take
the HSF off to find out).. slot1... Free, pay postage.

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Scott Newell
2002-07-07 00:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
I'll be scanning anything I get with mine to put online.
Y'all have seen the writeup BG Micro put up, correct?

http://www.bgmicro.com/pdf/acs1394.pdf

The Trimble TAIP protocol doc is at:

ftp://ftp.trimble.com/pub/tracking/pla400-TAIP-Reference.pdf


newell
Bill Bradford
2002-07-07 00:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Newell
Post by Bill Bradford
I'll be scanning anything I get with mine to put online.
Y'all have seen the writeup BG Micro put up, correct?
http://www.bgmicro.com/pdf/acs1394.pdf
ftp://ftp.trimble.com/pub/tracking/pla400-TAIP-Reference.pdf
I'm envisioning ending up with a little metal enclosure, with a connection
for the antenna, a power jack, and a DB9 serial output to connect to
$MACHINE as an NTP source...

Anybody up for assembling this (or at least wiring the TTL-to-RS232
converter) if I provide parts and fundage?

Bill
--
Bill Bradford
***@mrbill.net
Austin, TX
Dave McGuire
2002-07-07 00:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bradford
Post by Scott Newell
Post by Bill Bradford
I'll be scanning anything I get with mine to put online.
Y'all have seen the writeup BG Micro put up, correct?
http://www.bgmicro.com/pdf/acs1394.pdf
ftp://ftp.trimble.com/pub/tracking/pla400-TAIP-Reference.pdf
I'm envisioning ending up with a little metal enclosure, with a connection
for the antenna, a power jack, and a DB9 serial output to connect to
$MACHINE as an NTP source...
Anybody up for assembling this (or at least wiring the TTL-to-RS232
converter) if I provide parts and fundage?
I'd be happy to take care of that for you, Bill.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Amy
2002-07-07 00:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Adkins
MY GOD! Where might I be now, if the world hadn't tried to cram me into
their cookie-cutter mold of conformity and bored me to dispair and
mis-behavior as a child.
Hrm. My mom just cut me off of red juice (specifically Kool-Aide). It made
me less bounce-off-the-walls but it sure didn't stop me from lighting
paper by the pilot light downstairs...

--a
George Adkins
2002-07-07 00:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy
Post by George Adkins
MY GOD! Where might I be now, if the world hadn't tried to cram me into
their cookie-cutter mold of conformity and bored me to dispair and
mis-behavior as a child.
Hrm. My mom just cut me off of red juice (specifically Kool-Aide). It made
me less bounce-off-the-walls but it sure didn't stop me from lighting
paper by the pilot light downstairs...
Yes, but were you subjected to mental and physical abuse?

Mine wasn't problems at home (that was all fine), it wen't something like:

Kid from out of town + 18 months younger than peers in same grade + Startling
to off-the-chart assesment scores + 98% or better grades on class tests +
refuses to do or turn in homework assignments + poor socialization skills &
problems getting along with other students + ignores Teachers / works ahead /
reads unrelated material in class + argues with teachers over incorrect /
inexact information = Label child as "Disobedient - Discipline problem" +
react to challenges of authority / knowledge with corporal punishment
(paddling) and in-class humiliation + accuse parents of abuse / neglect at
home + attempt to deny student advancement to next grade not because of
academic ability but because of 'behavioral issues' (succeed once - my
parents moved and I changed school districts frequently because of this)
Dave McGuire
2002-07-07 01:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Adkins
Kid from out of town + 18 months younger than peers in same grade + Startling
to off-the-chart assesment scores + 98% or better grades on class tests +
refuses to do or turn in homework assignments + poor socialization skills &
problems getting along with other students + ignores Teachers / works ahead /
reads unrelated material in class + argues with teachers over incorrect /
inexact information = Label child as "Disobedient - Discipline problem" +
react to challenges of authority / knowledge with corporal punishment
(paddling) and in-class humiliation + accuse parents of abuse / neglect at
home + attempt to deny student advancement to next grade not because of
academic ability but because of 'behavioral issues' (succeed once - my
parents moved and I changed school districts frequently because of this)
You forgot "funny looking".

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire "Needing a calculator indicates that
St. Petersburg, FL your .emacs file is incomplete." -Joshua Boyd
Kurt Huhn
2002-07-07 01:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy
Hrm. My mom just cut me off of red juice (specifically Kool-Aide). It made
me less bounce-off-the-walls but it sure didn't stop me from lighting
paper by the pilot light downstairs...
In my case, it was blowing shit up. Explosions were a natural progression from
plain-old fire. (and still are. MWUAHAHAHAHAHAH!)
--
Kurt "What me look like, ricecake monster?
***@k-huhn.com Me Cookie Monster! Me need COOKIE!" --Cookie Monster
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